Let Oleoresin Talk (LOT) Project
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But don't forget Adam, with all the videos you shared, you also imparted to us the joy of distilling. Just the other day I was at my Mom's house. She has a very fragrant Rose plant. The Rose is color lavender and smells wonderful
Then I thought, if Adam were here and I had a sack of these petals, what parameters would we use to capture this aroma
Then I thought, if Adam were here and I had a sack of these petals, what parameters would we use to capture this aroma
Well I didn't think I would ever mention this in public but given the LOT and pricing issues and perfectly boiled eggs discussion, what we employ to craft our most expensive oils is a yield MINIMIZING technique
Think about that for a second. We can't get the desired smell unless we sacrifice more than half the yield.... Most would squeeze that extra oil and bring the price down for consumers – I opt to give them something no one else can produce...
Think about that for a second. We can't get the desired smell unless we sacrifice more than half the yield.... Most would squeeze that extra oil and bring the price down for consumers – I opt to give them something no one else can produce...
I think most of us can attest to what @Oudamberlove said about it being a D^%m good Oil.
Interesting discussion!
One question I have is this:
I have a rather extensive collection of agarwood - many of the better smelling batches of wood are not that well resinated compared to other, more expensive batches of wood I have - in other words, the "grade" of the wood is certainly lower than various sinking grade woods I have, yet the smell is sometimes better. Kyara itself is often not sinking grade, and many of the very fine batches of monkoh grade woods are far from sinking grade.
How is it then that the most prized batches of agarwood oil come from sinking grade wood and other batches of wood that are very resinated/high grade/costly, if there are many woods which are much less resinated and therefore less costly?
One question I have is this:
I have a rather extensive collection of agarwood - many of the better smelling batches of wood are not that well resinated compared to other, more expensive batches of wood I have - in other words, the "grade" of the wood is certainly lower than various sinking grade woods I have, yet the smell is sometimes better. Kyara itself is often not sinking grade, and many of the very fine batches of monkoh grade woods are far from sinking grade.
How is it then that the most prized batches of agarwood oil come from sinking grade wood and other batches of wood that are very resinated/high grade/costly, if there are many woods which are much less resinated and therefore less costly?
Ahhhhhh but I think your wrong Sidi Ensar. Your saying this is the technique you use for your most expensive oils, yet when any one of your oils are applied, the same feeling comes out that there must be a very special technique used for this Oil!
I think most of us can attest to what @Oudamberlove said about it being a D^%m good Oil.
I think most of us can attest to what @Oudamberlove said about it being a D^%m good Oil.
Very interesting discussion to be sure. To me the concept of making the elite high end oils logically implies lower yields. I guess the best analogy I can make is to wine making since I have good friends in the biz. In order to make the best wine, grapes have to be carefully selected. Out of the vineyard, some clusters of grapes are perfect and others are less than. To make their top wine, they have to select out only the best grapes, threrefore decreasing the yield, hence smaller quantity, but better wine. More run of the mill wine has everything thrown in so you get more of it.
I would assume it is the same way with oud. Instead of throwing in the pot all the wood you have, you pick out only the most fragrant, resinated, (or whatever paremter necessary), to created the best oil you can. Any less that perfect ingredients would degrade the quality.
5me0- your point is very interesting indeed. I think it would come down to the experience of the distiller to determine which wood would work best in the oil they are trying to make.
I would assume it is the same way with oud. Instead of throwing in the pot all the wood you have, you pick out only the most fragrant, resinated, (or whatever paremter necessary), to created the best oil you can. Any less that perfect ingredients would degrade the quality.
5me0- your point is very interesting indeed. I think it would come down to the experience of the distiller to determine which wood would work best in the oil they are trying to make.
Welcome @5MeO. Albeit kyara itself is often not sinking, it is the sinking batches of kyara that fetch much higher prices than the non-sinking. When the wood gets sold, it sells according to the way it looks (resin content) and its 'carvability'; not according to the way that it smells ('monkoh' value). Hence, the replacement cost for sinking grade oils is much higher than the replacement cost for non-sinking grade oils; i.e. they cost a lot more to produce.
Secondly, while generally true, that is not an absolute rule... Kynam No 1, as an example, was distilled from such wood as you mention (very high value for monkoh purposes; very little value for carving / selling as 'good loooking' wood in the wood market) and it was much more costly than many sinking grade oils (Oud Ahmad, Sultani, Kannan Koh, etc).
The best of both worlds is when you have wood that has very high monkoh value and is super resinated / sinking-grade at the same time (Brunei Kinam; Purple Kinam; Kyara de Kalbar; Nha Trang LTD; etc)
Secondly, while generally true, that is not an absolute rule... Kynam No 1, as an example, was distilled from such wood as you mention (very high value for monkoh purposes; very little value for carving / selling as 'good loooking' wood in the wood market) and it was much more costly than many sinking grade oils (Oud Ahmad, Sultani, Kannan Koh, etc).
The best of both worlds is when you have wood that has very high monkoh value and is super resinated / sinking-grade at the same time (Brunei Kinam; Purple Kinam; Kyara de Kalbar; Nha Trang LTD; etc)
I have noticed that the really heavily resinated sinking grade woods often seem to have a "denser" smell when heated than do less resinated woods - perhaps this is the same thing as "richness".. When the scent profile of that density/richness though isn't really that nice, sometimes these types of woods can tend toward an acrid or overly harsh scent as the heating session goes on. I have a certain Indonesian batch of sinking chips (not sure which part of Indonesia) that smell amazing during the first few minutes of the heating session, but then get quite bitter/acrid/harsh..
Perhaps the less densely resinated woods are a little more "forgiving" of an lower quality of scent profile because the lower level of richness or scent density makes it less likely that they will get unpleasant smelling as the heating session goes on? Lol, I really have no idea, just speculating here..
Perhaps the less densely resinated woods are a little more "forgiving" of an lower quality of scent profile because the lower level of richness or scent density makes it less likely that they will get unpleasant smelling as the heating session goes on? Lol, I really have no idea, just speculating here..
@5MeO IME I can get any wood to become acrid and harsh. It has to do with what you're trying to achieve and the techniques and methods you use to get the results. What I illustrate are not distinct points but rather points along a continuum from very low heat to scorching.
~very low heat-an attempt to gently heat the resin while minimizing the scent of the heated wood(auxiliary notes), least smoke.
~low to low medium heat-faster heating of resin and more wood notes, resin still dominates, more smoke.
~medium heat-an attempt to balance resin and auxiliary wood notes, more smoke.
~high heat-ultimately burning the resin and wood, possibly making to wood glow red and resin black and hard, most smoke, acrid and harsh.
If you don't have an adjustable heater try letting a good bit of ash to form on charcoal and/or use mica sheets.
For listening I use the lowest heat possible until I sense the fragrance and may have very small wisps of smoke, I might intermittently modulate the heat up to get it going, then turn back down. To fumigate an area I use high medium heat, attempting to get a lot of smoke, with this I notice that initially the scent tends towards harsh but with time the smoky notes subside and a good strong resin scent lingers. In ways it reminds me of heating techniques used when distilling oils, which I've been doing for years and years.................and years and years and years
~very low heat-an attempt to gently heat the resin while minimizing the scent of the heated wood(auxiliary notes), least smoke.
~low to low medium heat-faster heating of resin and more wood notes, resin still dominates, more smoke.
~medium heat-an attempt to balance resin and auxiliary wood notes, more smoke.
~high heat-ultimately burning the resin and wood, possibly making to wood glow red and resin black and hard, most smoke, acrid and harsh.
If you don't have an adjustable heater try letting a good bit of ash to form on charcoal and/or use mica sheets.
For listening I use the lowest heat possible until I sense the fragrance and may have very small wisps of smoke, I might intermittently modulate the heat up to get it going, then turn back down. To fumigate an area I use high medium heat, attempting to get a lot of smoke, with this I notice that initially the scent tends towards harsh but with time the smoky notes subside and a good strong resin scent lingers. In ways it reminds me of heating techniques used when distilling oils, which I've been doing for years and years.................and years and years and years
Yes indeed - and apparently certain woods respond best to certain heating temps and cycles - Taha has a lot to say about this..
I have the Golden Lotus heater by Mermade - I use the lowest setting usually for agarwood - 150C - as the aroma fades a bit I will then crank the heat up to get the last bit of scent out of it.. Seems to work really well with most all woods.. I rarely burn the wood, though the benefit of doing so is the scent sticks in the room after the smoke clears, and burning also is a different scent experience, more like incense..
I have the Golden Lotus heater by Mermade - I use the lowest setting usually for agarwood - 150C - as the aroma fades a bit I will then crank the heat up to get the last bit of scent out of it.. Seems to work really well with most all woods.. I rarely burn the wood, though the benefit of doing so is the scent sticks in the room after the smoke clears, and burning also is a different scent experience, more like incense..
Sorry @all for dropping off the face of the earth the past couple weeks.
The LOT topic is a personal passion of mine, so I do hope to contribute some more as time allows.
With respect to: and Excellent observation, but there are some important facts that you need to keep in mind, which not only answer the questions you posed but will also shed light on some other important issues in a broader sense.
Firstly, you have to keep in mind that agarwood taken out from the tree's heartwood is different from agarwood collected from other parts of the tree (xylem, bark and roots). Not only is the aging/development of the oleoresin different, but even the stimulus that triggered the oleoresin formation is usually different. The epitome of the heartwood agarwood aroma is what is called "ant-hole" agarwood in the oud trade. I know Ensar can shed a lot of light on this.
Worthy of note is that the aging of oleoresin in the heartwood happens in an anoxic environment (absence of oxygen), which is not the case with the aging that happens elsewhere in the tree. Although that Ensar and I can identify oils extracted from this or that quite easily, probably many of you can also easily tell the difference between the two - just not knowing what it specifically is that makes the two different. For that, you need to be a distiller.
So, with that said, let's take a look at a scenario that I'm sure many of us have encountered.
You take two virtually identical-looking slivers of wood from the same batch. Same harvest, same tree, same visual grade.. same everything. When you heat them, one hits the sweet spot while the other fails to impress. Why is that?
I'll also try to tie the above in with oils as well.
The LOT topic is a personal passion of mine, so I do hope to contribute some more as time allows.
With respect to: and Excellent observation, but there are some important facts that you need to keep in mind, which not only answer the questions you posed but will also shed light on some other important issues in a broader sense.
Firstly, you have to keep in mind that agarwood taken out from the tree's heartwood is different from agarwood collected from other parts of the tree (xylem, bark and roots). Not only is the aging/development of the oleoresin different, but even the stimulus that triggered the oleoresin formation is usually different. The epitome of the heartwood agarwood aroma is what is called "ant-hole" agarwood in the oud trade. I know Ensar can shed a lot of light on this.
Worthy of note is that the aging of oleoresin in the heartwood happens in an anoxic environment (absence of oxygen), which is not the case with the aging that happens elsewhere in the tree. Although that Ensar and I can identify oils extracted from this or that quite easily, probably many of you can also easily tell the difference between the two - just not knowing what it specifically is that makes the two different. For that, you need to be a distiller.
So, with that said, let's take a look at a scenario that I'm sure many of us have encountered.
You take two virtually identical-looking slivers of wood from the same batch. Same harvest, same tree, same visual grade.. same everything. When you heat them, one hits the sweet spot while the other fails to impress. Why is that?
- Its most likely due to the part of the tree the pieces were extracted from (deep heartwood vs root, at the two opposite ends of the spectrum) or because of the stimulus that triggered the formation of the oleoresin (e.g. ant-hole vs bear mauling, the two opposite ends of the spectrum).
- Agarwood oleoresin is the tree's response to stress (gravity, lightening, bear mauling, fungi, insect activity, etc.), different stimuli within the same tree cause oleoresin formations with different scent profiles. Just like our body's immune response to a flu virus is different from the response to a cut.
- The longer that oleoresin is allowed to age/mature/develop inside the tree, the richer, more complex, and more fragrant it becomes. In the presence/absence of oxygen is an important factor too. Your two slivers could very well smell different because of different periods of maturation inside the tree, or anoxic vs oxidizing aging.
- The resinated patches will continue to mature and get darker (more oleoresin) until the tree 'feels' it has fought off the attack/stress (sometimes that never happens, and the tree dies). For this reason, any sinking grade agarwood will always be superior to non-sinking agarwood from the same oeloresin formation. On the other hand, a sinking grade patch formed due to bear mauling will most likely smell inferior to a non-sinking grade ant-hole piece from the very same tree (different stimuli + geography inside the tree).
I'll also try to tie the above in with oils as well.
Ah, very interesting, thanks!
I have certainly noticed that some chips from a given batch have different scent profiles, and some I certainly prefer..
In general I certainly notice that the more resinated pieces are more fragrant and rich.. That king super grade Malaysian you offered for sale a year or two ago is a great example - ultra dense resination and a spectacular aroma..
In terms of heating the agarwood, I have been experimenting with the following:
Adding a mix of coarser and "curly" shavings of the wood in with more finely powdered agarwood - since the curled parts of the agarwood are not in direct contact with the burner, and the thicker slivers thicker, they are slower to release their aromatic goodies, whilst the finely powdered agarwood is quicker to. So, as we all know, the opening of agarwood, the first few minutes especially, are when very often the most delightful and unique notes are given off - adding slivers of different granulation and curlyness allows for the opening notes to be released more slowly by certain parts of the wood, mixing with the deeper darker notes that come from the more quickly aromatized wood - I have found this can create a most exceptional, complex scent bouquet..
I have certainly noticed that some chips from a given batch have different scent profiles, and some I certainly prefer..
In general I certainly notice that the more resinated pieces are more fragrant and rich.. That king super grade Malaysian you offered for sale a year or two ago is a great example - ultra dense resination and a spectacular aroma..
In terms of heating the agarwood, I have been experimenting with the following:
Adding a mix of coarser and "curly" shavings of the wood in with more finely powdered agarwood - since the curled parts of the agarwood are not in direct contact with the burner, and the thicker slivers thicker, they are slower to release their aromatic goodies, whilst the finely powdered agarwood is quicker to. So, as we all know, the opening of agarwood, the first few minutes especially, are when very often the most delightful and unique notes are given off - adding slivers of different granulation and curlyness allows for the opening notes to be released more slowly by certain parts of the wood, mixing with the deeper darker notes that come from the more quickly aromatized wood - I have found this can create a most exceptional, complex scent bouquet..
And have you noticed... if you're using a low temp heater, after about an hour or so when you thought the wood's all used up, you swirl the wood around with your finger and suddenly a whole lot of additional oudy goodness gets released? Its aroma even offers some additional delight which you didn't get from the wisps of vapor released during the first stage.
This phenomenon has a distillation implication too.
(hint: Kalyani, when you compare it to Lavanya)
This phenomenon has a distillation implication too.
(hint: Kalyani, when you compare it to Lavanya)
Yes indeed! I like to turn the heater off around then, let it cool all the way down, and the heat the wood back up - the second opening is the most fantastic pure woody sort of notes - very different than the smell of either the first opening/first time heating, or any notes that will arise from continuing to heat the same wood..
If you want a regular ol' boring English poundcake to taste more ooh la la, decadent, Frenchish... you add more butter. At the most, maybe also add some more sugar.
So what do you do if you want a richer, OUDIER oud?
But the real question is... what IS an oudy oud?
The absence of fruity/floral notes?
Amplified smokiness?
What is it about, say, Ensar's Sultan Series that gives the same sort of "oud-calorie rich" satisfaction (for the nose) that a French dessert does (for the taste buds)?
So what do you do if you want a richer, OUDIER oud?
But the real question is... what IS an oudy oud?
The absence of fruity/floral notes?
Amplified smokiness?
What is it about, say, Ensar's Sultan Series that gives the same sort of "oud-calorie rich" satisfaction (for the nose) that a French dessert does (for the taste buds)?
Tying into the post here, the summary of the first Gaharu LOT lesson:
- a ton of auxiliaries are integrated into an oil's scent profile even before the actual distillation starts: right at the soak stage.
- depending on the species of wood, and the method of soaking (or lack thereof) implemented, the scent profile can be shaped according to what the distiller had in mind (sadly, its usually left to chance in the case of run-of-the-mill oils).
- an important point: the 'flavor'+intensity of auxiliaries is usually directly correlated to the amount of oleoresin in the wood. With more resinated wood e.g. King Koh Kong (wood soaked for 10 days as well), the effect will be different. Zero ripe fruit in this oil. Of course there were other factors as well, and other auxiliaries too. When one compares L'Essentiel Cambodgien to King Koh Kong, I'm sure 99% of folks would guess the latter is a steel brew and the latter a steel brew, whereas its actually the opposite. There are of course other factors too, but right now we're focusing on the first LOT lesson, The Soak.
- Different species will present different scent notes, even if the same single set of parameters are applied to Specie A and Specie B.
- Auxiliary notes are not necessarily a bad (or good) thing. It all depends on what the aim was.
- It is worth noting that generally speaking, auxiliary notes play a less crucial role in high grade oils (i.e. extracted from high grade wood) than lesser grade oils. The reason is two-fold: (1) soak-related auxiliary notes are automatically more muted in the case of oils extracted from higher grade wood, and (2) auxiliary notes are more important for "making up" for the gaps in the case of oils extracted from lesser grades.
- Finally, let's not forget that when raw agarwood is burned, auxiliary compounds other than the oleoresin (wood volatile compounds) ARE also released. Strictly speaking, those auxiliary compounds are not foreign elements. But by the same token, other auxiliary notes are indeed foreign. But.. there is no sign in the desert that sayeth thou shalt not eat stone (translation: who says you can't enjoy a good tasteful barnyard note?!)
Let the Oleoresin Talk: A Comparative Analysis
In past review I mentioned that with Lalitya, by Taha of Agar Aura, he was able to capture the scent of the resin itself while greatly minimizing the scent of the wood and displaying an absence of nearly all auxillary notes of tweaks, tricks, specifics of distillation, etc. IME there are two highly dichotomous oils juxtaposed to each other, that speak the same resinous language, Agar Aura's Lalitya and Ensar Oud's Chugoku Senkoh.
In talks with Ensar he told me that I'd likely find similarities between the two, and while I do, these oils take me on a completely different scenic and sensory oudyssey to the same blissful, resinous destination.
Both of the oils are lightly hued; way lighter in color compared to other oils from their respective regions. Lalitya is a light, golden sunshine while Chugoku Senkoh has a very soft muslin, linen color. Both oils have glistening transparency; lacking opacity, cloudiness and with no visible sediment. The oils are of medium viscosity and on the skin they have a silky shimmer and leave a long-lasting sheen. Both oils are visually and texturally appealing.
Both oils have, at the center of their scent characteristics, a core focus on exemplifying the resinous quality of their feedstock that permeates the entire spectrum of their development. Lalitya does it with the precision, control and composure of Federer*; oddly and despite this, it is an invigorating oil, overall more yang. Chugoku Senkoh does it with the dashing, youthful athleticism of Nadal*; oddly and despite this, it is a calming oil, overall more yin. Lalitya's DNA is more firmly rooted in Assamese Agallocha, spicy and more medicinal, with notes of hay, tobacco and the dry down of a barn Hindi; oddly and despite this, the overall feel of the oil is more Oriental. Chugoku Senkoh's DNA seems to be more firmly rooted in Chinese Sinensis, slightly sweet, with notes of vanilla, anise, clove and a faint hint of orange rind; oddly and despite this, the overall feel of the oil is more Arabian. The projection and longevity of the oils are excellent, with Lalitya's being more ethereal and effervescent and Chugoku Senkoh's being more direct and concentrated. Both oils are full spectrum with deep complexity and have smooth transition from top to base notes, without collapse.
Having had Lalitya first I can say that Chugoku Senkoh has given me an even deeper, more profound respect, admiration and appreciation for it, and I'm sure it would be the same way if it was the other way around.
The journeys were undertaken and the goals achieved, two beautifully epic tales conveying the powerfully compelling narrative of resin while maintaining the distinct and unique signatures of their authors. Oftentimes we bestow accolades onto our artisans and it is deservingly so, I increase my hat to you both and if my neighbors wouldn't immediately call pepperoni on me, I'd salute you with celebratory gunfire.
*this from Yoda, I borrowed
In past review I mentioned that with Lalitya, by Taha of Agar Aura, he was able to capture the scent of the resin itself while greatly minimizing the scent of the wood and displaying an absence of nearly all auxillary notes of tweaks, tricks, specifics of distillation, etc. IME there are two highly dichotomous oils juxtaposed to each other, that speak the same resinous language, Agar Aura's Lalitya and Ensar Oud's Chugoku Senkoh.
In talks with Ensar he told me that I'd likely find similarities between the two, and while I do, these oils take me on a completely different scenic and sensory oudyssey to the same blissful, resinous destination.
Both of the oils are lightly hued; way lighter in color compared to other oils from their respective regions. Lalitya is a light, golden sunshine while Chugoku Senkoh has a very soft muslin, linen color. Both oils have glistening transparency; lacking opacity, cloudiness and with no visible sediment. The oils are of medium viscosity and on the skin they have a silky shimmer and leave a long-lasting sheen. Both oils are visually and texturally appealing.
Both oils have, at the center of their scent characteristics, a core focus on exemplifying the resinous quality of their feedstock that permeates the entire spectrum of their development. Lalitya does it with the precision, control and composure of Federer*; oddly and despite this, it is an invigorating oil, overall more yang. Chugoku Senkoh does it with the dashing, youthful athleticism of Nadal*; oddly and despite this, it is a calming oil, overall more yin. Lalitya's DNA is more firmly rooted in Assamese Agallocha, spicy and more medicinal, with notes of hay, tobacco and the dry down of a barn Hindi; oddly and despite this, the overall feel of the oil is more Oriental. Chugoku Senkoh's DNA seems to be more firmly rooted in Chinese Sinensis, slightly sweet, with notes of vanilla, anise, clove and a faint hint of orange rind; oddly and despite this, the overall feel of the oil is more Arabian. The projection and longevity of the oils are excellent, with Lalitya's being more ethereal and effervescent and Chugoku Senkoh's being more direct and concentrated. Both oils are full spectrum with deep complexity and have smooth transition from top to base notes, without collapse.
Having had Lalitya first I can say that Chugoku Senkoh has given me an even deeper, more profound respect, admiration and appreciation for it, and I'm sure it would be the same way if it was the other way around.
The journeys were undertaken and the goals achieved, two beautifully epic tales conveying the powerfully compelling narrative of resin while maintaining the distinct and unique signatures of their authors. Oftentimes we bestow accolades onto our artisans and it is deservingly so, I increase my hat to you both and if my neighbors wouldn't immediately call pepperoni on me, I'd salute you with celebratory gunfire.
*this from Yoda, I borrowed