Oud Biz: The Dark Side
- Thread starter Taha
- Start date
From the perspective of an outsider and a newbie there seems to be a whole load of low blows/indirect digs and innuendos across threads/forums. For someone who just wanted to enjoy oud, the truth seems to getting murkier by the day and I can't help but feel the period calm before a storm - it's quite disheartening.
simply I thing it was brought out by trying to help a person:
<<<<<<<<No I alerted Taha to a distiller who claimed that he was owed money by Taha for over a year and despite his pleas and contact, had got nothing from him ... I ignored it for 3 months as I found it hard to believe Taha would do such a thing, but then decided to help the guy resolve the matter by contacting Taha and letting him know about this issue.>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<No I alerted Taha to a distiller who claimed that he was owed money by Taha for over a year and despite his pleas and contact, had got nothing from him ... I ignored it for 3 months as I found it hard to believe Taha would do such a thing, but then decided to help the guy resolve the matter by contacting Taha and letting him know about this issue.>>>>>>
I share your sentiments. This kind of stuff is very unusual on Gaharu and the moderators (obviously yours truly included), keep a tight lid to avoid it here. Unfortunately, there were too many hints, accusations, allegations, implications made on another oud site about some of the artisans who frequent here. And I am in no way either questioning or agreeing with them. Some of the people involved on the other site expressed a desire to come here and explain what they mean. Therefore, it found its way here. So far, I think most of it had been informational so I let it play out. I think sometimes it is better to to shine the light rather than letting things fester before gangrene sets in.
I agree. For the record, I am not comfortable with this and whatever the truth of the matter is, it needs to be put to bed. To me it appears that the distiller has diverted Taha's yield of oil and sold it elsewhere, while presenting Taha with the rest of the oil as the full yield... that is what I understand from what I have heard.
Well now. This is getting a bit out of control. I had hoped the recent surge of guests here came with the intent to talk about oud and share their experiences with it, but then again I really knew there were much more devious intentions.
I personally have no desire to allow this forum to turn into the treacherous one I formerly visited. Where I went excited and green and was instantly labeled and talked about behind my back. Where I began to fear what I posted, then began to fear posting at all.
So..from my perspective. No more innuendos. No more bull. If you have something to say or proclaim, do it now. Please bring proof and please be accurate.
Because now you have come to my safe place with your darkness, the last place I feel comfortable speaking freely. I am speaking personally as much or more than a moderator. When everyone has had their say, when everyone has had their turn, when the dust has settled, then either I will leave or all of those with clear agendas will.
So go ahead guys. You know who you are. Now is the time.
I personally have no desire to allow this forum to turn into the treacherous one I formerly visited. Where I went excited and green and was instantly labeled and talked about behind my back. Where I began to fear what I posted, then began to fear posting at all.
So..from my perspective. No more innuendos. No more bull. If you have something to say or proclaim, do it now. Please bring proof and please be accurate.
Because now you have come to my safe place with your darkness, the last place I feel comfortable speaking freely. I am speaking personally as much or more than a moderator. When everyone has had their say, when everyone has had their turn, when the dust has settled, then either I will leave or all of those with clear agendas will.
So go ahead guys. You know who you are. Now is the time.
Indeed, he has every right to expose those involved. But knowing him, his kind heart will probably let him gift the oil to them in the end or settle things by letting bygones be bygones, like he did with the Sulawesi which he 'donated' to Imperial Oud 
Agreed. I know he did call up at least one guy, and they resolved the matter amicably (i.e. the other guy got a gift).
Kindly note that this discussion only caught on because of Maulana Habz786’s ‘innuendo and allegations’. I was just standing up for my brother as I’m sure those shots hit someone, or at least were heard by many.
Come to think of it, Habz786 felt quite strongly about bringing the discussion over this way… but I guess he's been preoccupied with a renegade, gunh slingingh sheriffh
Agreed. I know he did call up at least one guy, and they resolved the matter amicably (i.e. the other guy got a gift).
Kindly note that this discussion only caught on because of Maulana Habz786’s ‘innuendo and allegations’. I was just standing up for my brother as I’m sure those shots hit someone, or at least were heard by many.
Come to think of it, Habz786 felt quite strongly about bringing the discussion over this way… but I guess he's been preoccupied with a renegade, gunh slingingh sheriffh
Indeed, he has every right to expose those involved. But knowing him, his kind heart will probably let him gift the oil to them in the end or settle things by letting bygones be bygones, like he did with the Sulawesi which he 'donated' to Imperial Oud
Agreed. I know he did call up at least one guy, and they resolved the matter amicably (i.e. the other guy got a gift).
Kindly note that this discussion only caught on because of Maulana Habz786’s ‘innuendo and allegations’. I was just standing up for my brother as I’m sure those shots hit someone, or at least were heard by many.
Come to think of it, Habz786 felt quite strongly about bringing the discussion over this way… but I guess he's been preoccupied with a renegade, gunh slingingh sheriffh
Agreed. I know he did call up at least one guy, and they resolved the matter amicably (i.e. the other guy got a gift).
Kindly note that this discussion only caught on because of Maulana Habz786’s ‘innuendo and allegations’. I was just standing up for my brother as I’m sure those shots hit someone, or at least were heard by many.
Come to think of it, Habz786 felt quite strongly about bringing the discussion over this way… but I guess he's been preoccupied with a renegade, gunh slingingh sheriffh
I have to agree. This has to stop. No one deserves to be slandered openly like this.
Guys im writing a response soon, can we not turn this into a hatefest. Its all about clarity and i was going to PM Taha after his response but i feel thats not the way foward now due to the circumstances. Mr Kruger just because i have a beard doesnt make me a mawlana but thanks for that comment found it funny
Indeed, he has every right to expose those involved. But knowing him, his kind heart will probably let him gift the oil to them in the end or settle things by letting bygones be bygones, like he did with the Sulawesi which he 'donated' to Imperial Oud
Agreed. I know he did call up at least one guy, and they resolved the matter amicably (i.e. the other guy got a gift).
Kindly note that this discussion only caught on because of Maulana Habz786’s ‘innuendo and allegations’. I was just standing up for my brother as I’m sure those shots hit someone, or at least were heard by many.
Come to think of it, Habz786 felt quite strongly about bringing the discussion over this way… but I guess he's been preoccupied with a renegade, gunh slingingh sheriffh
Agreed. I know he did call up at least one guy, and they resolved the matter amicably (i.e. the other guy got a gift).
Kindly note that this discussion only caught on because of Maulana Habz786’s ‘innuendo and allegations’. I was just standing up for my brother as I’m sure those shots hit someone, or at least were heard by many.
Come to think of it, Habz786 felt quite strongly about bringing the discussion over this way… but I guess he's been preoccupied with a renegade, gunh slingingh sheriffh
When we went to Borneo we met with the distiller and were initially speaking about Hirta oils. He happened to have a small amount left of Sulawesi oil which we both tried and really liked.
He didn't have any raw materials for this oil so I paid him money in cash to purchase the wood.
After returning to the UK I continually asked for updates and I even have around half a kilo of the wood which he bought for the distillation sent to me prior to cooking from the actual trader.
Taha didn't gift me anything, I paid for it prior to cooking.
Don't make this your business without knowing the full facts.
Wasalam
@Taha
The reason why I made this issue public was due to the strange nature of our private conversations and your subtle mocking of vendors who are trying to bring fair prices into the market using this MOCA slogan when you yourself apparently have sourced distiller oils for $150 a tola.
Personally, I don’t care what you sell oils for. It is the (mis)representation of them as ‘custom’ Gen4 oils that is the issue here along with you buying oils at $150 a tola and complaining of high prices. This doesn’t seem a very high price to me. You yourself posted on here that cheap oils cost $20-50 for a 2.5g from distillers directly, so what does that make Mai Wan Lao that costs $150 a tola from Sadiq (the distiller in question) (which works out at about $31 for 2.5g and is available not directly for some strange reason, but only exclusively through a reseller for $400 a bottle)
I think its very unlikely that a "Gen4" unique oil which was cooked for yourself could be sent by mistake to three different people by a distiller. That’s right… three different people! The distiller even currently has more available and I know one of them might buy another 10 tolas.
Is this really a custom oil as you say, or a readily available oil from the distiller for $150 a tola for anyone who has the cash? I know of one vendor whos is disgusted with what he regards as your complete lies on the matter and another individual who have received over 20 tolas of the same oil that you call Mai Wan Lao.
If it was one other person who had been sold the oil then I would think ok maybe it was an error on the part of the distiller, but that is not the case here and now you are accusing the distiller of theft to explain the low price to everyone. Everyone on this forum understands the accusation of theft you have made. You didn’t say this when we spoke privately. You said the distiller had made a mistake by accidently posting it out to someone else?
Is the distiller a thief? I find it highly unlikely given he is also the fact the distiller still has the oil available for sale right now as we speak! To me it doesnt make sense why the distiller Sadiq who is as you know, very well known, well off & produces oil in litres would need to "rob" you or simply want to make a few hundred dollars by selling your oil to others which would not make sense from a business point of view especially from someone who is rich and well connected. The guy is probably a millionaire.
I do believe Lao chen xiang which was the oil which you originally thought had been mixed up may have been exclusive to you however for the reasons I have given above, I do not believe Mai wan lao is.
Also the main point that is the most unsettling is that people were getting an oil for $150 a tola which was being sold at over $400 for 3g by yourself, which again some people may think is fair but for me its worrying and has nothing to do with #MOCA #MOFA but more to do with #MOME (make oud more expensive). Only yesterday you said oils with this price tag are considered yuk yet you have sold them and proved a point that even if somehow the distiller charged you more reasonbly priced oud is available on the market. I mean $200 for such a nice smelling oil is a good deal.
Here we have people very quickly take sides without understanding a situation or hearing from those parties accused of cheating you which is unfair however thats what good friends do back their freinds up regardless. If you really are sure that you have been robbed please lets discuss this here openly. I will speak to the distillers/people who many have said many things about yourself which i ignored and now with these accusations i dont know who to believe.
All of these tolas which have gone missing theres always going to be 2 sides to every story and until the second side has not spoken the truth isnt made apparent i cant made a educational assessment which i can understand would be long winded and something you maybe dont want to get into for whatever reasons you have.
The reason why I made this issue public was due to the strange nature of our private conversations and your subtle mocking of vendors who are trying to bring fair prices into the market using this MOCA slogan when you yourself apparently have sourced distiller oils for $150 a tola.
Personally, I don’t care what you sell oils for. It is the (mis)representation of them as ‘custom’ Gen4 oils that is the issue here along with you buying oils at $150 a tola and complaining of high prices. This doesn’t seem a very high price to me. You yourself posted on here that cheap oils cost $20-50 for a 2.5g from distillers directly, so what does that make Mai Wan Lao that costs $150 a tola from Sadiq (the distiller in question) (which works out at about $31 for 2.5g and is available not directly for some strange reason, but only exclusively through a reseller for $400 a bottle)
I think its very unlikely that a "Gen4" unique oil which was cooked for yourself could be sent by mistake to three different people by a distiller. That’s right… three different people! The distiller even currently has more available and I know one of them might buy another 10 tolas.
Is this really a custom oil as you say, or a readily available oil from the distiller for $150 a tola for anyone who has the cash? I know of one vendor whos is disgusted with what he regards as your complete lies on the matter and another individual who have received over 20 tolas of the same oil that you call Mai Wan Lao.
If it was one other person who had been sold the oil then I would think ok maybe it was an error on the part of the distiller, but that is not the case here and now you are accusing the distiller of theft to explain the low price to everyone. Everyone on this forum understands the accusation of theft you have made. You didn’t say this when we spoke privately. You said the distiller had made a mistake by accidently posting it out to someone else?
Is the distiller a thief? I find it highly unlikely given he is also the fact the distiller still has the oil available for sale right now as we speak! To me it doesnt make sense why the distiller Sadiq who is as you know, very well known, well off & produces oil in litres would need to "rob" you or simply want to make a few hundred dollars by selling your oil to others which would not make sense from a business point of view especially from someone who is rich and well connected. The guy is probably a millionaire.
I do believe Lao chen xiang which was the oil which you originally thought had been mixed up may have been exclusive to you however for the reasons I have given above, I do not believe Mai wan lao is.
Also the main point that is the most unsettling is that people were getting an oil for $150 a tola which was being sold at over $400 for 3g by yourself, which again some people may think is fair but for me its worrying and has nothing to do with #MOCA #MOFA but more to do with #MOME (make oud more expensive). Only yesterday you said oils with this price tag are considered yuk yet you have sold them and proved a point that even if somehow the distiller charged you more reasonbly priced oud is available on the market. I mean $200 for such a nice smelling oil is a good deal.
Here we have people very quickly take sides without understanding a situation or hearing from those parties accused of cheating you which is unfair however thats what good friends do back their freinds up regardless. If you really are sure that you have been robbed please lets discuss this here openly. I will speak to the distillers/people who many have said many things about yourself which i ignored and now with these accusations i dont know who to believe.
All of these tolas which have gone missing theres always going to be 2 sides to every story and until the second side has not spoken the truth isnt made apparent i cant made a educational assessment which i can understand would be long winded and something you maybe dont want to get into for whatever reasons you have.
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Some random thoughts:
1. I know firsthand that Taha was shortchanged by 50 grams of his own distillation just recently. This is not hearsay, nor is it a story he told me in confidence. I know this for a FACT. I saw it happen. His total yield for the run was 140 gr, of which he received only 90 (the distiller told him that was all of it). More than a third of the yield ended up with someone else.
So, I don’t need Taha to make up stories of what happened to him because I've SEEN it happen to him.
2. Both Taha and Adam posted comprehensive lists of distillers from whom you can buy $150 / tola oils, or cheaper. It would be stupid of them to them offer those same oils, especially with high mark-ups. Stupid and very obvious.
3. Ensar has been accused of overcharging since day one. Yet, we've always had an open invite, till this day. If it's so easy and so cheap to make the oils we are 'overcharging' for, anybody is welcome to bring another Kyara Koutan or Sultan Murad for half the price. We are confident that can't be done quite simply because none in the vast lineup of distillers even think about distilling the wood we do. We’ve repeated this ad nauseum. So has Adam and Taha. When we make or find an oud for cheap, through whatever cunning of ours, it is sold for cheap, as Aroha Kyaku, the Satoris, and just about all of our Olde Ouds can attest to. Even these 'cheap' ouds are exceptional and hard to mimic and simply because of their uniqueness could have been 'marketed' as being worth more. This was never the done. We don’t buy $95 / tola oils and resell them for $470 / bottle.
Not to mention that our $550 pricing has remained thus for the past decade, while the ouds sold at that price have gotten older, bolder, and better.
If you have beef with our ‘expensive’ oils, there are plenty of ‘affordable’ ones available. Same goes for Agar Aura and Feel Oud.
4. Taha had Sutera and Ukupan Kayu, one made from much better wood. But very few could tell the difference - in fact many thought the lesser grade one was better! So, just because subjectively an oil distilled from inferior wood is preferred doesn’t mean it was objectively made from better materials – i.e. when something cheap yet comparable hits the scene, there’s probably more to the story.
5. I’ve seen my share of double dealing in this business (not the least of which the recent snatch of a third of Taha’s yield). The dirty business includes the rich and powerful. It doesn't surprise me in the least. One man, by far the biggest wig in his neck of the woods, shows and offers oil that was signed and sealed for by one customer to other customers without blinking, in cases even selling it off. You should see the guy’s house(s) and his massive distillery. And these were not considerably large batches - to him, they were leftovers. Yet, he does this. It’s known about him. There's one guy in Thailand that looks very well off. He just built a new mansion, set up a new lab and is busy expanding his distillery… yet we’ve learned from experience that he can’t be trusted with even a 5 gr packet of chips. Wealth doesn't breed honesty, and some wealthy folk get weird kicks in weird ways.
Plus, you might be a millionaire but you might be a billion in debt.
6. It is not necessary for Taha to defend himself. I actually encourage him not to even get involved here and simply ignore the accusations. He doesn’t need to prove himself to anyone who’s ever dealt with him. That his reputation gets tarnished by this tirade is scandalous. People have hounded and stalked his every move, stolen distillers and supplies, releasing similar oils from the same distilleries 'at reasonable prices' though from palpably inferior materials. People who made it a point to track down and contact every single distiller Taha ever trained, so they could get similar smelling oils and then sell them 'for less'.
Is it fair to take the word of some random distiller whom you’ve never met, dealt with once or twice (not in liters, but a mere tola or two) over someone who’s proved himself honest over many years, just because that distiller is rich???
7. He, and everyone else, is free to buy and sell as he likes. If you feel you are being shortchanged, take your business elsewhere. If you are the lucky recipient of oils he is responsible for, congratulations. If you can get more of the same, go right ahead. He was the one who freely publicized all these contacts in the first place. Since then everyone's been 'dealing with distillers directly', thinking they're getting the same stuff, only cheaper. There are words to describe such people.
Anyway, that’s my three cents’ worth. Please don't reply point by point. I'm not making arguments, just puffing out some thoughts.
1. I know firsthand that Taha was shortchanged by 50 grams of his own distillation just recently. This is not hearsay, nor is it a story he told me in confidence. I know this for a FACT. I saw it happen. His total yield for the run was 140 gr, of which he received only 90 (the distiller told him that was all of it). More than a third of the yield ended up with someone else.
So, I don’t need Taha to make up stories of what happened to him because I've SEEN it happen to him.
2. Both Taha and Adam posted comprehensive lists of distillers from whom you can buy $150 / tola oils, or cheaper. It would be stupid of them to them offer those same oils, especially with high mark-ups. Stupid and very obvious.
3. Ensar has been accused of overcharging since day one. Yet, we've always had an open invite, till this day. If it's so easy and so cheap to make the oils we are 'overcharging' for, anybody is welcome to bring another Kyara Koutan or Sultan Murad for half the price. We are confident that can't be done quite simply because none in the vast lineup of distillers even think about distilling the wood we do. We’ve repeated this ad nauseum. So has Adam and Taha. When we make or find an oud for cheap, through whatever cunning of ours, it is sold for cheap, as Aroha Kyaku, the Satoris, and just about all of our Olde Ouds can attest to. Even these 'cheap' ouds are exceptional and hard to mimic and simply because of their uniqueness could have been 'marketed' as being worth more. This was never the done. We don’t buy $95 / tola oils and resell them for $470 / bottle.
Not to mention that our $550 pricing has remained thus for the past decade, while the ouds sold at that price have gotten older, bolder, and better.
If you have beef with our ‘expensive’ oils, there are plenty of ‘affordable’ ones available. Same goes for Agar Aura and Feel Oud.
4. Taha had Sutera and Ukupan Kayu, one made from much better wood. But very few could tell the difference - in fact many thought the lesser grade one was better! So, just because subjectively an oil distilled from inferior wood is preferred doesn’t mean it was objectively made from better materials – i.e. when something cheap yet comparable hits the scene, there’s probably more to the story.
5. I’ve seen my share of double dealing in this business (not the least of which the recent snatch of a third of Taha’s yield). The dirty business includes the rich and powerful. It doesn't surprise me in the least. One man, by far the biggest wig in his neck of the woods, shows and offers oil that was signed and sealed for by one customer to other customers without blinking, in cases even selling it off. You should see the guy’s house(s) and his massive distillery. And these were not considerably large batches - to him, they were leftovers. Yet, he does this. It’s known about him. There's one guy in Thailand that looks very well off. He just built a new mansion, set up a new lab and is busy expanding his distillery… yet we’ve learned from experience that he can’t be trusted with even a 5 gr packet of chips. Wealth doesn't breed honesty, and some wealthy folk get weird kicks in weird ways.
Plus, you might be a millionaire but you might be a billion in debt.
6. It is not necessary for Taha to defend himself. I actually encourage him not to even get involved here and simply ignore the accusations. He doesn’t need to prove himself to anyone who’s ever dealt with him. That his reputation gets tarnished by this tirade is scandalous. People have hounded and stalked his every move, stolen distillers and supplies, releasing similar oils from the same distilleries 'at reasonable prices' though from palpably inferior materials. People who made it a point to track down and contact every single distiller Taha ever trained, so they could get similar smelling oils and then sell them 'for less'.
Is it fair to take the word of some random distiller whom you’ve never met, dealt with once or twice (not in liters, but a mere tola or two) over someone who’s proved himself honest over many years, just because that distiller is rich???
7. He, and everyone else, is free to buy and sell as he likes. If you feel you are being shortchanged, take your business elsewhere. If you are the lucky recipient of oils he is responsible for, congratulations. If you can get more of the same, go right ahead. He was the one who freely publicized all these contacts in the first place. Since then everyone's been 'dealing with distillers directly', thinking they're getting the same stuff, only cheaper. There are words to describe such people.
Anyway, that’s my three cents’ worth. Please don't reply point by point. I'm not making arguments, just puffing out some thoughts.
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