Oud Biz: The Dark Side

Taha

Well-Known Member
#81
Looks like my gig is up folks, I've been caught red handed. I've been peddling $95-$150/tola oils for astronomical prices.
Gen3...? Psshh, just add some floral absolutes to a cheap oud. Or even better, synthetics (the more surreal the better... the whole 'inner dimension' story sells easier). :D
Gen4..? Skip the additives.
As a matter of fact I'm off to hunt down some more such cheapies, so sadly I won't have much time to share much more than that for now. Gotta make preparations.

Alternative caption for those who are into 'stories':
Gotta pitch a tent and cook some more Vietnamese oud, in Vietnam this time. It's in a remote location so I cannot guarantee I'll have a connection when I'm there.

---------------------

I'd been hoping to hear from Habz on WhatsApp but I didn't (ended up deciding I'd contact him myself in the morning but alas, all this ^ got posted right in this thread, which I didn't want contaminated with this issue).
@Admin/mods, can this stuff kindly be shifted to a new thread please?
Habz, still hoping to hearing from you on WhatsApp. The time constraints I face certainly would make it much easier for me compared to posting online.

Since the Sulawesi oil came up, just to set the record straight and since I did mention earlier that this particular issue got resolved (we both paid.. me back in July/Aug 2015 and not sure when Faizal did but HE DID too, and I told him to just keep the oil)..
IMG_0045.PNG IMG_0042.PNG IMG_0044.PNG
These are the sorts of people we're dealing with. And this distiller is not an anomaly, so it should speak something loud and clear to those who take a moment to reflect.
Not too clear? I've been more open than anyone on my blog/facebook, sharing names/locations/contact info of my (ex) distillers (even been advised in the past by other vendors to be more careful, wish I had taken heed!). So if anyone decides to get in touch with those guys to buy oils directly, please... just try to ensure it's an oil whose raw material didn't belong to someone else. These lovely folks are generally cut from a cloth quite different from what most of us are used to. The people who are engaged in the oud trade in the east know this all too well, and this stuff usually gets filtered out by the time you, the customer, are clicking on the Order button for your BOJ (bottles of joy).
Faizal was completely unaware of this in the case of the Sulawesi oil, and I could sense the honesty in his voice when we spoke without a doubt. Knowing that only one of us could have the oil (plus, it was already with him), I decided to give it up. ie case closed. Meanwhile, our distiller friend of course maintained (still maintains? Who knows.. he was the first I tossed out) that Faizal got some random oil distilled by someone else that he passed on to Faizal, as you can see in the screenshot. In my heart I know that's a lie.

Only mentioning the Sulawesi oil here because it came up, and it involves someone else (Faizal/Imperial). Case closed. No secret agendas, attempts at harming anyone, etc.
For all the other cases, guys, do the right thing. If in (even the slightest) doubt.. verify, ascertain, before trampling all over a guy's bread. I'm a message away (well at least for the next 18 hours).
Public trial demanded? Fine. Please not in this thread though.

In 2016 I spent (wasted) WAY too much time on jungle hunts (alternative caption: sipping Pina coladas at resorts.. depends which 'story' your mind likes to believe). During this period, I requested distillers to KEEP my oils with them until I was able to pay them for their labour/facilities rental etc (the wood was already paid for by me). Most of the oils 'vanished' during this time, ie lots of Christmases for some of these folks. :rolleyes:
The truth: I got too addicted to those darn yummy pina coladas!

---Edit---


1. I know firsthand that Taha was shortchanged by 50 grams of his own distillation just recently. This is not hearsay, nor is it a story he told me in confidence. I know this for a FACT. I saw it happen. His total yield for the run was 140 gr, of which he received only 90 (the distiller told him that was all of it). More than a third of the yield ended up with someone else.

So, I don’t need Taha to make up stories of what happened to him because I've SEEN it happen to him.
Oh wow, I did it again didn't I? Took too long to compose my post (I'll blame my Canadianness in attempting to choose my words a little too carefully, ha!), and in the meantime my 'lawyer' just came up with an even more brilliant 'story' than I could have. :p
Yep, it's true. Didn't want to post about this case, but yes Ensar and Kruger were secretly offered to buy the oil. The only difference in this case: they didn't quickly snatch up the oil, but rather showed up at my home after a few days and told me all about it.
And to whoever Ensar's/Kruger's words hold credibility, they can tell you how long I waited to receive the batches of Kalyani & Lavanya because I told the distiller to hold the oils for me just so I could transfer the cash for allowing me to use his facility (a paltry sum compared to the cost of the raw material!). I'd forgotten about this guy... one (out of formerly three) Indian distiller I can still trust. So that's a grand total of two now (Ahmad being the other).
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
#82
Speaking of the missing yield...
@Kruger, you've seen the pot with your own eyes, you know how much wood was loaded into it, and how much total oil was derived (and why I was disappointed by a yield most would love to get... being unaware of the missing 50g). Maybe this would be a good time to get this thread back on topic.
Some juicy topics I can think of, right off the top of my head... distinguishing the smell of oils from oil wood vs incense grade wood (you got to smell both), yield indicators, The Chamber of Secrets aka special 'techniques' (you got to see my Thai distillation seemingly defy the laws of Physics.. I should audition for the next Harry Potter instalment :D) and how they can either open up the Z axis or zoom in on the emperor's nakedness, and so on. In fact, I see Oud_Learner already set up the stage for this. :)

I gotta run. Apologies in advance if there are terribly prolonged delays in my responses here on out.
The court date is most inconvenient for me. :(
 
#83
Let me start by making clear that there are people who have said pretty stupid things regarding Oud prices on Ouddict forum and I have privately contacted them and told them to pipe down or have their accounts restricted. Oud is not a cheap resource and vendors do have families and it is their living and that should be respected as long as they carry on with their businesses fairly.

I did not know the full details of the current issue with Taha until yesterday, but many have known about this for months and not said a thing until now when vendors like Taha here continually mock other vendors with this MOCA labelling and constant talk of Oud becoming so rare and expensive that it is no longer viable. From what Habib has said if Taha was buying Oud for $150 a tola and selling it as a special "Gen4" distillation at $400 and at the same time sarcastically talking about MOCA, then you can understand his frustration.

Let me also make it clear that I think he should have contacted Taha privately and asked about it, but we are where we are now. I even phoned Taha yesterday and spoke to him. I urged him to contact Habib and settle this in private for the good of the Oud community and I explicitly let him know that it was this whole MOCA nonsense that triggered this. It may be that this distiller is a dishonest thief and Taha is entirely innocent of what Habib has concluded. I do not know, but from speaking to another vendor who also has the same oil from the distiller, the other vendor is scathing about what he says are Taha's 'lies' on this issue.

That brings me to my final point. Looking at Kruger's response above, I see absolutely nothing that answers a single point that Habib has made regarding this oil. Nor has Taha answered the questions and this has not gone unnoticed. If you want people to have confidence in your statements when they have a glaring example of your oils going for $150 per tola on the market then simply address the questions about this particular distiller and the Mai Wan Lao Oud with proof.

Habib was allowed to come on this forum to make this statement and he has. People are waiting for an answer that addresses the points he has raised on this particular issue. Don't obfuscate it by pointing elsewhere. Stick to the points Habib has made and end this right now. If they aren't forthcoming then people will draw their own conclusions based on what Habib has said.
 
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#84
Some random thoughts:

1. I know firsthand that Taha was shortchanged by 50 grams of his own distillation just recently. This is not hearsay, nor is it a story he told me in confidence. I know this for a FACT. I saw it happen. His total yield for the run was 140 gr, of which he received only 90 (the distiller told him that was all of it). More than a third of the yield ended up with someone else.

So, I don’t need Taha to make up stories of what happened to him because I've SEEN it happen to him.

2. Both Taha and Adam posted comprehensive lists of distillers from whom you can buy $150 / tola oils, or cheaper. It would be stupid of them to them offer those same oils, especially with high mark-ups. Stupid and very obvious.

3. Ensar has been accused of overcharging since day one. Yet, we've always had an open invite, till this day. If it's so easy and so cheap to make the oils we are 'overcharging' for, anybody is welcome to bring another Kyara Koutan or Sultan Murad for half the price. We are confident that can't be done quite simply because none in the vast lineup of distillers even think about distilling the wood we do. We’ve repeated this ad nauseum. So has Adam and Taha. When we make or find an oud for cheap, through whatever cunning of ours, it is sold for cheap, as Aroha Kyaku, the Satoris, and just about all of our Olde Ouds can attest to. Even these 'cheap' ouds are exceptional and hard to mimic and simply because of their uniqueness could have been 'marketed' as being worth more. This was never the done. We don’t buy $95 / tola oils and resell them for $470 / bottle.

Not to mention that our $550 pricing has remained thus for the past decade, while the ouds sold at that price have gotten older, bolder, and better.

If you have beef with our ‘expensive’ oils, there are plenty of ‘affordable’ ones available. Same goes for Agar Aura and Feel Oud.

4. Taha had Sutera and Ukupan Kayu, one made from much better wood. But very few could tell the difference - in fact many thought the lesser grade one was better! So, just because subjectively an oil distilled from inferior wood is preferred doesn’t mean it was objectively made from better materials – i.e. when something cheap yet comparable hits the scene, there’s probably more to the story.

5. I’ve seen my share of double dealing in this business (not the least of which the recent snatch of a third of Taha’s yield). The dirty business includes the rich and powerful. It doesn't surprise me in the least. One man, by far the biggest wig in his neck of the woods, shows and offers oil that was signed and sealed for by one customer to other customers without blinking, in cases even selling it off. You should see the guy’s house(s) and his massive distillery. And these were not considerably large batches - to him, they were leftovers. Yet, he does this. It’s known about him. There's one guy in Thailand that looks very well off. He just built a new mansion, set up a new lab and is busy expanding his distillery… yet we’ve learned from experience that he can’t be trusted with even a 5 gr packet of chips. Wealth doesn't breed honesty, and some wealthy folk get weird kicks in weird ways.

Plus, you might be a millionaire but you might be a billion in debt.

6. It is not necessary for Taha to defend himself. I actually encourage him not to even get involved here and simply ignore the accusations. He doesn’t need to prove himself to anyone who’s ever dealt with him. That his reputation gets tarnished by this tirade is scandalous. People have hounded and stalked his every move, stolen distillers and supplies, releasing similar oils from the same distilleries 'at reasonable prices' though from palpably inferior materials. People who made it a point to track down and contact every single distiller Taha ever trained, so they could get similar smelling oils and then sell them 'for less'.

Is it fair to take the word of some random distiller whom you’ve never met, dealt with once or twice (not in liters, but a mere tola or two) over someone who’s proved himself honest over many years, just because that distiller is rich???

7. He, and everyone else, is free to buy and sell as he likes. If you feel you are being shortchanged, take your business elsewhere. If you are the lucky recipient of oils he is responsible for, congratulations. If you can get more of the same, go right ahead. He was the one who freely publicized all these contacts in the first place. Since then everyone's been 'dealing with distillers directly', thinking they're getting the same stuff, only cheaper. There are words to describe such people.

Anyway, that’s my three cents’ worth. Please don't reply point by point. I'm not making arguments, just puffing out some thoughts.
Kruger may I ask if you will apologise to me? If not then fine, I will make a point of meeting you and sidi in the UK so we can discuss these issues that you feel so strongly about.
Taha, I've tried calling you, please call me back when you can.
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#85
@Ouddict - It feels like we are beating a dead horse. As far as the whole MOCA issue as I see it, it was a response to the debunked allegations against Taha et al. Not the other way around.
Lastly, Taha has explained most of the issues clearly and I do not think any further clarification really adds anything. This whole think is sickening and fatiguing to deal with anymore. I especially detest the notion that one can come out and accuse another of any impropriety and then it is up to the accused to prove their innocence. The burden is on the accuser and that fell way short of any proof. The whole affair comes across as no more that a smear campaign.

So, any further discourse about this, unless DIRECTLY from those involved, will be sent to the digital dustbin or worse.
 
#86
@Ouddict - It feels like we are beating a dead horse. As far as the whole MOCA issue as I see it, it was a response to the debunked allegations against Taha et al. Not the other way around.
Lastly, Taha has explained most of the issues clearly and I do not think any further clarification really adds anything. This whole think is sickening and fatiguing to deal with anymore. I especially detest the notion that one can come out and accuse another of any impropriety and then it is up to the accused to prove their innocence. The burden is on the accuser and that fell way short of any proof. The whole affair comes across as no more that a smear campaign.

So, any further discourse about this, unless DIRECTLY from those involved, will be sent to the digital dustbin or worse.
I have made my position on this clear to you by PM and do not intend to post on this subject any further.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#87
I see absolutely nothing that answers a single point that Habib has made regarding this oil. Nor has Taha answered the questions and this has not gone unnoticed. If you want people to have confidence in your statements when they have a glaring example of your oils going for $150 per tola on the market then simply address the questions about this particular distiller and the Mai Wan Lao Oud with proof.

Its hurtful enough that I am the one who lost all these oils, then on top of that I am made into the poster-child for vendors who overcharge (!!!)... step into my shoes for a second please? I'm sure you can imagine how hard it is for me to quietly take the spreading of the baseless ifk, but from chats/phone calls you know all too well I don't like to act on any he-said-she-said. And that's the only reason I've kept quiet.

The two cases (with screenshots) I posted earlier are just two examples of situations where one thing happened, and it was presented differently by the lovely distillers. The screenshots I posted demonstrate how much stories can change, and in them is a hint for those who reflect.

The difference between what I post and what some like to spread: My posts exonerate. Those other folks' posts tarnish (and trample on others' bread, and leave oud lovers end up hating oud, warp oud appreciation, and blur the solid lines between grades, and..., and...). Worst of all...? The basis of all these allegations (at least all the ones I know of) are all baseless and could have been resolved as easily as the two examples I already demonstrated. Burma, India, Indonesia, you name it. Yes, Laos too.

So yes, you're absolutely right: I haven't addressed Habz' allegations in the least bit. Read the first part of this post again to see why.

There's this thing called 'Chinese whispers', I'm sure everyone here has heard of it. Then you got 'South East Asian whispers', ooooooh boy... I think many of you are only beginning to see what that's like. :D

Again, I'll be off the grid soon to cook some oils / sip on exotic beverages (readers are welcome to take their pick of the story they choose to believe).

@Ouddict you already know what happened in the case of the Laos oils. Maybe you can convey it to Habz in the meantime. As for me, I'm signing off for the night and I don't know when I'll have the opportunity to log in next.

@Faizal, sorry I missed your call, I was at the bank and then at a money exchanger. Here in Malaysia they don't allow you to be on the phone. I did send you a text message in response though.

@all, please continue to give your precious artisanal Ouds lots of love.
 
#88
From a customer perspective I just want to say a few simple things and I hope vendors should take it positively:
  1. We are civilised people and do not mind paying for vendor's value addition, so please don't ask us to go to the distillers for $150/tola products - it's insulting. Neither we are begging you to give your stuff in charity, we would like to have this customer - vendor relationship graceful.
  2. We want to purchase the oil where the price of oil is directly related to Cost of production plus we also want to pay for Artisan's innovation but this innovation mark up should be reasonable.
  3. We also understand the cost of running business, we are not comparing your costs with direct distiller costs. We will be happy to pay a little bit more than what a non-online customer pays for the product.
  4. I am not posting here to put fuel into this conversation, seriously - as a customer I don't want to know how you all vendors run your business... each business have it's own challenges and that is what you guys are also facing.
  5. Just as you take a lot of risk in your business... on the other side we shouldn't forget how the person, who is hooked to your oils, go through the situations to buy the oils.
  6. Importantly we want Vendors to come out of this situation clean, reason been we do not want to look stupid in front of our families whom we have convinced very strongly about justification of our expensive hobby
It's evident from Basenotes times that this price confusion is not leaving online oud community... we want our vendors to prosper and flourish but in reasonable manner - without excessively milking the online customers, if they are.

There is no special agenda on what I wrote, it's just how I feel as a customer.
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#89
Im_au. That is a very thoughtful and reasoned post and clearly demonstrates an informed and mature understanding of how businesses work and the proper relationship between vendor and customer.
This is so patently obvious but for some reason there are those who have a hard time grasping these concepts. Thank you.
 
#90
From a customer perspective I just want to say a few simple things and I hope vendors should take it positively:
  1. We are civilised people and do not mind paying for vendor's value addition, so please don't ask us to go to the distillers for $150/tola products - it's insulting. Neither we are begging you to give your stuff in charity, we would like to have this customer - vendor relationship graceful.
  2. We want to purchase the oil where the price of oil is directly related to Cost of production plus we also want to pay for Artisan's innovation but this innovation mark up should be reasonable.
  3. We also understand the cost of running business, we are not comparing your costs with direct distiller costs. We will be happy to pay a little bit more than what a non-online customer pays for the product.
  4. I am not posting here to put fuel into this conversation, seriously - as a customer I don't want to know how you all vendors run your business... each business have it's own challenges and that is what you guys are also facing.
  5. Just as you take a lot of risk in your business... on the other side we shouldn't forget how the person, who is hooked to your oils, go through the situations to buy the oils.
  6. Importantly we want Vendors to come out of this situation clean, reason been we do not want to look stupid in front of our families whom we have convinced very strongly about justification of our expensive hobby
It's evident from Basenotes times that this price confusion is not leaving online oud community... we want our vendors to prosper and flourish but in reasonable manner - without excessively milking the online customers, if they are.

There is no special agenda on what I wrote, it's just how I feel as a customer.
Superb post. I was actually writing something like this along these lines, but you've ruined it now. :(

In fact someone wrote to me last month and asked me for distiller contacts and some of the points you mentioned, I put forward to him.
 

kooolaid79

Well-Known Member
#91
From a customer perspective I just want to say a few simple things and I hope vendors should take it positively:
  1. We are civilised people and do not mind paying for vendor's value addition, so please don't ask us to go to the distillers for $150/tola products - it's insulting. Neither we are begging you to give your stuff in charity, we would like to have this customer - vendor relationship graceful.
  2. We want to purchase the oil where the price of oil is directly related to Cost of production plus we also want to pay for Artisan's innovation but this innovation mark up should be reasonable.
  3. We also understand the cost of running business, we are not comparing your costs with direct distiller costs. We will be happy to pay a little bit more than what a non-online customer pays for the product.
  4. I am not posting here to put fuel into this conversation, seriously - as a customer I don't want to know how you all vendors run your business... each business have it's own challenges and that is what you guys are also facing.
  5. Just as you take a lot of risk in your business... on the other side we shouldn't forget how the person, who is hooked to your oils, go through the situations to buy the oils.
  6. Importantly we want Vendors to come out of this situation clean, reason been we do not want to look stupid in front of our families whom we have convinced very strongly about justification of our expensive hobby
It's evident from Basenotes times that this price confusion is not leaving online oud community... we want our vendors to prosper and flourish but in reasonable manner - without excessively milking the online customers, if they are.

There is no special agenda on what I wrote, it's just how I feel as a customer.
Thank you for posting this!
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#92
@Ensar,
Your private pep talk about hasad has actualized an all-new meaning in my heart. o_O
I lost consciousness, for no apparent reason, for about 6 hours yesterday soon after the distillation started. All I remember is blinding light, pitch blackness, and regaining consciousness in and out a few times in between. I could barely even eat anything and finally consumed my first calorie after about 25 hours. Hasad.. like, whoaaa...
Good thing I was out only while no actual oil had started coming out. The apparatus here is pretty archaic, to the 'distillers' themselves distillation is just a matter of boiling wood (can't trust them with the distillation), and so I'm gonna need my consciousness intact to ensure this batch doesn't get ruined. :eek:
@all, whoever has emailed me these past couple of days, I may not be able to get back to you for a while. Your understanding is appreciated.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#93
From a customer perspective I just want to say a few simple things and I hope vendors should take it positively:
  1. We are civilised people and do not mind paying for vendor's value addition, so please don't ask us to go to the distillers for $150/tola products - it's insulting. Neither we are begging you to give your stuff in charity, we would like to have this customer - vendor relationship graceful.
  2. We want to purchase the oil where the price of oil is directly related to Cost of production plus we also want to pay for Artisan's innovation but this innovation mark up should be reasonable.
  3. We also understand the cost of running business, we are not comparing your costs with direct distiller costs. We will be happy to pay a little bit more than what a non-online customer pays for the product.
  4. I am not posting here to put fuel into this conversation, seriously - as a customer I don't want to know how you all vendors run your business... each business have it's own challenges and that is what you guys are also facing.
  5. Just as you take a lot of risk in your business... on the other side we shouldn't forget how the person, who is hooked to your oils, go through the situations to buy the oils.
  6. Importantly we want Vendors to come out of this situation clean, reason been we do not want to look stupid in front of our families whom we have convinced very strongly about justification of our expensive hobby
It's evident from Basenotes times that this price confusion is not leaving online oud community... we want our vendors to prosper and flourish but in reasonable manner - without excessively milking the online customers, if they are.

There is no special agenda on what I wrote, it's just how I feel as a customer.
Excellent post. Worthy of carving in stone.
Ensar and I discussed these issues at length, at my home. We both plan to roll out some oils specifically with the intention of re-drawing the lines that divide the different grades of oud.
White wood oils neither of us is interested in dealing in. Plenty of places you can get those from. But there are several grades above that (and at vastly different price points), I'm sure they will provide a lot of insight for discerning noses. Myself, I plan to start with Cambodian.

Meanwhile, I see there's been no development in the Laos discussion, which is a big disappointment. What was the point of the big scare.. the atom bomb.. if it was to go nowhere from there.
Here are some spice sprinklings, maybe they'll trigger further discussion so everyone can (finally!) get to the bottom of this:
- the total yield was over 60 tolas - way more than expected because I alotted way more wood for the Gen4 batch than the Gen3 batch. The unexpected high yield was due to the shotgun setup (first ever Gen4 like this). With other setups, the yield is much lower hence more wood is alotted.
- Dear Distiller decided to use some of his OWN wood to make a separate batch as well, and implemented my techniques with it. I have a bottle of that oil. It smells like a cross between halitosis and damp socks forgotten in the laundry bin for a week or two (Ensar, what did you liken it to?). FREE sample for the first 5 people who express interest in trying it (no free shipping though :p).
- my own source for the wood is another guy, a Chinese dude 'F.T.' who operates simultaneously out of Laos as well as Singapore. He doesn't have any distillation facilities, hence my compulsion to resort to Dear Distiller. Feel free to believe or disbelieve in this guy's existence (and the excellence of HIS wood), there are at least 3 guys who frequent this forum who also know him.
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#94
From a customer perspective I just want to say a few simple things and I hope vendors should take it positively:
  1. We are civilised people and do not mind paying for vendor's value addition, so please don't ask us to go to the distillers for $150/tola products - it's insulting. Neither we are begging you to give your stuff in charity, we would like to have this customer - vendor relationship graceful.
  2. We want to purchase the oil where the price of oil is directly related to Cost of production plus we also want to pay for Artisan's innovation but this innovation mark up should be reasonable.
  3. We also understand the cost of running business, we are not comparing your costs with direct distiller costs. We will be happy to pay a little bit more than what a non-online customer pays for the product.
  4. I am not posting here to put fuel into this conversation, seriously - as a customer I don't want to know how you all vendors run your business... each business have it's own challenges and that is what you guys are also facing.
  5. Just as you take a lot of risk in your business... on the other side we shouldn't forget how the person, who is hooked to your oils, go through the situations to buy the oils.
  6. Importantly we want Vendors to come out of this situation clean, reason been we do not want to look stupid in front of our families whom we have convinced very strongly about justification of our expensive hobby
It's evident from Basenotes times that this price confusion is not leaving online oud community... we want our vendors to prosper and flourish but in reasonable manner - without excessively milking the online customers, if they are.

There is no special agenda on what I wrote, it's just how I feel as a customer.
Great post. Truly. I would add a couple things.

Just as with ANY luxury item, one that is nonessential to basic life (I may argue this in another thread), it is entirely a free market. If you, or me, as a customer think the cost of an oil exceeds the value, we shouldn't buy it. Period. This may be with individual oils or entire brands. Some people have a closet full of Armani suits, for me personally, they are not worth it. But I bet the bulk of those Armani suit guys would say the same about my oil collection. Different opinions and priorities.

What about the artisan/art aspect? Similar paintings can have very different price tags depending on the name attached to it. If one of these guys puts their own tweaks or unique twists, and their names on the bottle, well, then they should be able to charge what they want.

This is entirely separate from the differences in wood and any of the distiller issues we are dealing with now. Just my thoughts.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#95
@Ensar, Your private pep talk about hasad has actualized an all-new meaning in my heart. I lost consciousness, for no apparent reason, for about 6 hours yesterday soon after the distillation started. All I remember is blinding light, pitch blackness, and regaining consciousness in and out a few times in between. I could barely even eat anything and finally consumed my first calorie after about 25 hours. Hasad.. like, whoaaa...
We are dealing with a phenomenon of evil (quite literally) and it affects this community like a deadly plague. Ya Latif! Blacked out at the distillery – can't eat – can't sleep – problems at home – deadly stress.... Enough!

If the glorious $150 oil is the one you swiped me with at dinner that time... well... you remember my reaction: You couldn't have done me a greater disservice, and I told you as much. I didn't get the socks or the halitosis. As I told you, it reminded me of a well aged barrel of feta cheese. All thoroughly soaked Laos oils have that smell, and I wouldn't touch any of them with a 9-foot pole if I could help it.

With all of the above said, I don't want anyone to say I'm scratching your back, so I'm really going to let you have it now, about your own Laotians.

I complained to @Taherg about the quality of the wood you used in both batches, and someone was thoughtful enough to spill the beans in public about my criticism. I wouldn't have brought this up again, but given the proportions of the current soap opera, I don't have a choice. I wasn't impressed by either of the two Laos oils – so far as the raw materials went (though I could clearly tell they were distilled according to AA parameters). I found the stock to be too young to be true wild, but gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was (if you said so) though perhaps not much more mature than cultivated stock that's available in Laos.

And – you guessed it! – a lone sharp-shooting ranger sent me a sample of Lao One. Well... it did absolutely nothing for me.... I can tell the wood was higher quality than all three oils discussed above, but still... just a better batch of good old feta cheese with half the zing of Assam Organic....

Moral of the story: stick to your own techniques and quality standards, and don't resell other people's oils – unless... of course... they're Sultan Qaboos (before @Ouddict gets on my case).
 
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#97
@Taha its nice that you aren't dealing in white woods, i'm sure ouddict's also don't want oils made from white wood unless they want to spend peanuts. I trust your oils to be of quality and I know you wouldnt use white wood. This mention of white wood is a distraction from the points I raised.

The fact the market is a lot more open now does call for new innovative ideas to attract people which is great. We also see a variety of vendors now offering high quality Oud like FO, IO, AA, HOM etc. I remember you saying most people can't tell the difference between high grade oils and high high grade oils or something of the sort, so how would they know the difference now?

In regards to the Atom bomb you have not provided any information in regards to the points raised but used examples of other cases to try and justify the same happening with the Laos oils. Moreover you have insinuated that my questions and findings are driven by hasad (envy) which i can assure you they are not, i'm a customer who is concerned with the information i found as anyone would be!

Myself aswell as others have had verbal communication with the distiller who confirms the points i have raised. I am willing to take an oath in Allah’s Name that i am telling the truth about what I have stated. For me, either the distiller is a liar and a thief (as implied by you), or you are. Given similar accusations from distillers you have used in the past I am very sceptical about your protestations of innocence. I have just had another different distiller confirm in writing that your claims are baseless, but I will let the individual who showed me them, post them on here if he wishes… or he can pass them to me to post on here.

I still find it very hard to believe that a custom made oil for you using your secret techniques was mistakenly sent to 3 different people or that the distiller would rob you (given he supplies in litres to the middle east and is loaded). I'm not saying the distiller found the wood for you and I believe you have your own sources for the wood.

I have tried different oils from the distiller which don't smell like rotten socks and are pleasant. I don't really understand the whole concept of the “Gens" but I’m working on it. IMO your older oils smell far better than the newer ones. I suppose this is due to the higher grade woods used which are so rare now and difficult to find and also the fact the older ones have been aged.

The Laos distillter told me verbally that the mai wan lo was not a exclusive oil to you hence it still being available and others having it, The oil was sold at 150$ as a basic price. Its a shame hes such a busy guy and always travelling as i want discuss your accusations of theft etc with him and I promise that I will come back with a response once i have made communication. If the other people who have spoken to him wish to come forward that is up to them however one person is being untrue and i guess i'll have to decide who that is and leave it to that.

Lets cut the rubbish and theatrics this has nothing to do with hasad (envy) and just own up that this batch was not exclusively for you and as @Ensar has said its better to sell oils which are exclusive to you, than run the risk of supplying ready available oils and situations like this arising. Many people have private messaged me for the distillers details which i will happily give so he can be contacted directly and the issue can be discussed if needs be or oils can be purchased directly and the quality compared. PS Hes not the best person to message so its worth trying to call him.

Sadiq Laos
+8562055528786
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#98
@Taha its nice that you aren't dealing in white woods, i'm sure ouddict's also don't want oils made from white wood unless they want to spend peanuts. I trust your oils to be of quality and I know you wouldnt use white wood. This mention of white wood is a distraction from the points I raised.

The fact the market is a lot more open now does call for new innovative ideas to attract people which is great. We also see a variety of vendors now offering high quality Oud like FO, IO, AA, HOM etc. I remember you saying most people can't tell the difference between high grade oils and high high grade oils or something of the sort, so how would they know the difference now?

In regards to the Atom bomb you have not provided any information in regards to the points raised but used examples of other cases to try and justify the same happening with the Laos oils. Moreover you have insinuated that my questions and findings are driven by hasad (envy) which i can assure you they are not, i'm a customer who is concerned with the information i found as anyone would be!

Myself aswell as others have had verbal communication with the distiller who confirms the points i have raised. I am willing to take an oath in Allah’s Name that i am telling the truth about what I have stated. For me, either the distiller is a liar and a thief (as implied by you), or you are. Given similar accusations from distillers you have used in the past I am very sceptical about your protestations of innocence. I have just had another different distiller confirm in writing that your claims are baseless, but I will let the individual who showed me them, post them on here if he wishes… or he can pass them to me to post on here.

I still find it very hard to believe that a custom made oil for you using your secret techniques was mistakenly sent to 3 different people or that the distiller would rob you (given he supplies in litres to the middle east and is loaded). I'm not saying the distiller found the wood for you and I believe you have your own sources for the wood.

I have tried different oils from the distiller which don't smell like rotten socks and are pleasant. I don't really understand the whole concept of the “Gens" but I’m working on it. IMO your older oils smell far better than the newer ones. I suppose this is due to the higher grade woods used which are so rare now and difficult to find and also the fact the older ones have been aged.

The Laos distillter told me verbally that the mai wan lo was not a exclusive oil to you hence it still being available and others having it, The oil was sold at 150$ as a basic price. Its a shame hes such a busy guy and always travelling as i want discuss your accusations of theft etc with him and I promise that I will come back with a response once i have made communication. If the other people who have spoken to him wish to come forward that is up to them however one person is being untrue and i guess i'll have to decide who that is and leave it to that.

Lets cut the rubbish and theatrics this has nothing to do with hasad (envy) and just own up that this batch was not exclusively for you and as @Ensar has said its better to sell oils which are exclusive to you, than run the risk of supplying ready available oils and situations like this arising. Many people have private messaged me for the distillers details which i will happily give so he can be contacted directly and the issue can be discussed if needs be or oils can be purchased directly and the quality compared. PS Hes not the best person to message so its worth trying to call him.

Sadiq Laos
+8562055528786
I don't think he could have addressed your points any more directly. He clearly told you that he sourced his wood from F. T. the Singapore dealer, and only used Sadiq's distillery to cook the oil. If Sadiq is offering the same oil to others, that puts the question mark on Sadiq.
 
#99
I don't think he could have addressed your points any more directly. He clearly told you that he sourced his wood from F. T. the Singapore dealer, and only used Sadiq's distillery to cook the oil. If Sadiq is offering the same oil to others, that puts the question mark on Sadiq.
@Ensar It's good you are backing up your fellow colleague but technically you are also jeopardising your reputation.
There is a technical flaw in what you guys are saying: As an experienced vendor, if you give wood to somebody to cook, you would have an idea about the yield that you are going to get (your claimed years of experience should tell you this). Now there can be a variation in the output +/- 10-20 % that one should expect... how come tolas and tolas are still available with the distiller?
If I consider the distiller as a thief, then I will raise a big question mark on the way you guys are doing business where you don't know what you should expect from your investment in raw materials? Or Distiller is smarter than you, who has better methods of producing more yield than you guys could imagine.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
@Ensar It's good you are backing up your fellow colleague but technically you are also jeopardising your reputation.
There is a technical flaw in what you guys are saying: As an experienced vendor, if you give wood to somebody to cook, you would have an idea about the yield that you are going to get (your claimed years of experience should tell you this). Now there can be a variation in the output +/- 10-20 % that one should expect... how come tolas and tolas are still available with the distiller?
If I consider the distiller as a thief, then I will raise a big question mark on the way you guys are doing business where you don't know what you should expect from your investment in raw materials? Or Distiller is smarter than you, who has better methods of producing more yield than you guys could imagine.
And what gave you the impression that I use the same exact business model / practices?

I've flown three people at a time from the wood's place of origin to my distillery just so I could get their luggage allowance and cook the wood in-house.

If we are not there to man the pots ourselves, the wood is entrusted to our kyara sifu of 20 years whom we know and trust like family.

I've often criticized Taha for using local distilleries and disclosing his trade secrets so they could tailor the distillation to his parameters - without being thoroughly acquainted with their business practices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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