Sturdy glass bottles vs. High recovery V-vials

PEARL

Well-Known Member
#1
@Ensar, I know for a long time you've advocated the use of the typical sturdy glass bottles for oils, but I also see that you offer the upgrade to V-vials. I also see that you like quality German Pyrex for storage of larger amounts of oil. With that, is there any appreciable difference in the sturdy glass bottles vs. V-vials, or is it more of a personal choice? What say the community as well.
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#2
Hey PEARL, obviously not Ensar, but though I think they are cool and may be beneficial for those truly precious last drops of oil (I haven't had enough time in the game to get there yet), I prefer the sturdy glass vials. I am always afraid I'm going to spill the entire contents with the v-vials. That is a personal preference.
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#3
Hey PEARL, obviously not Ensar, but though I think they are cool and may be beneficial for those truly precious last drops of oil (I haven't had enough time in the game to get there yet), I prefer the sturdy glass vials. I am always afraid I'm going to spill the entire contents with the v-vials. That is a personal preference.
I have gotten most of my oils in the v-vials. They are definitely very nice but you raise a very valid point. It is easier to knock them over as they are somewhat more slender. I try to keep them standing up in the small boxes they came in next to other bottles so they can't fall over. They are not inherently unstable standing up, just less stable then the standard, which you can knock over also.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#4
Perhaps the most qualified person to answer your question @PEARL would be @Oud_Learner who is a scientist by profession, and works with v-vials and all sorts of laboratory equipment day in and day out.

At the end of the day, the v-vials are only a question of supply and demand; people keep asking for them, and we see many customers who go out of their way to have their oils re-poured into v-vials, so I thought why not make it easy for everyone and just offer v-vials.

I personally don't like them. They're supposed to be inert glass that doesn't leech into the oil, and the plastic lining of the cap is meant to be totally inert, too.... I've been offering v-vials for about a month, or even less, and have had two accidents happen; stuff that hasn't happened to me with the sturdy glass bottles after years and years of use. I've dropped sturdy glass bottles on the floor countless times, and I never had one break. Try dropping a v-vial and see what happens.....

The question of 'dead skin cells' entering the vial if you use an applicator that is reintroduced inside the oil..... I get so tired of having to whip out a new toothpick every time I want to take a swipe, I eventually end up introducing skin cells in my personal use bottles just by putting the tip of my index finger at the top and flipping the bottle upside down to take a swipe.

So at the end of the day, it's a question of personal preference and convenience. If you don't mind keeping a box of toothpicks next to your collection, and taking out a new one for every swipe you take, then v-vials are okay. If you know you're going to use the oud and not store it for half a century, I think any amount of glass that might leech into the oil is going to be negligible.

PS: Sorry I have been missing in action, guys. My kids have been in and out of hospital, and I'm getting ready for a journey.... Really enjoying reading everybody's posts though! :)
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#5
Perhaps the most qualified person to answer your question @PEARL would be @Oud_Learner who is a scientist by profession, and works with v-vials and all sorts of laboratory equipment day in and day out.

At the end of the day, the v-vials are only a question of supply and demand; people keep asking for them, and we see many customers who go out of their way to have their oils re-poured into v-vials, so I thought why not make it easy for everyone and just offer v-vials.

I personally don't like them. They're supposed to be inert glass that doesn't leech into the oil, and the plastic lining of the cap is meant to be totally inert, too.... I've been offering v-vials for about a month, or even less, and have had two accidents happen; stuff that hasn't happened to me with the sturdy glass bottles after years and years of use. I've dropped sturdy glass bottles on the floor countless times, and I never had one break. Try dropping a v-vial and see what happens.....

The question of 'dead skin cells' entering the vial if you use an applicator that is reintroduced inside the oil..... I get so tired of having to whip out a new toothpick every time I want to take a swipe, I eventually end up introducing skin cells in my personal use bottles just by putting the tip of my index finger at the top and flipping the bottle upside down to take a swipe.

So at the end of the day, it's a question of personal preference and convenience. If you don't mind keeping a box of toothpicks next to your collection, and taking out a new one for every swipe you take, then v-vials are okay. If you know you're going to use the oud and not store it for half a century, I think any amount of glass that might leech into the oil is going to be negligible.

PS: Sorry I have been missing in action, guys. My kids have been in and out of hospital, and I'm getting ready for a journey.... Really enjoying reading everybody's posts though! :)
I have wondered about the potential for contamination of oil with skin cells or other contaminants like dust, fibers and other microscopic debris. I am not sure how using the standard bottle with the plastic wick prevents this from happening. After you swipe some oil on, you put it back into the oil. How much of an issue is this?

PS: I hope all is well with your kids.
 
#6
PS: Sorry I have been missing in action, guys. My kids have been in and out of hospital, and I'm getting ready for a journey.... Really enjoying reading everybody's posts though! :)
I'm sorry to hear that Sidi, May Allah grant them all shifa, Amin.
I shall keep them in my du'as.

I'm not that finicky about introducing skin cells into my oils so I stick to the sturdy glass bottles. The way I see it, I've always interacted with Oud in those bottles and not much as gone wrong so far. I do remember there being a huge debate on Basenotes about v-vials vs. sturdy glass bottles, The World In Scents (TWIS) was quite informative about the whole subject. I'm wondering if dead skin cells have an impact on an oil in the long-term?
 
#7
"I personally don't like them. They're supposed to be inert glass that doesn't leech into the oil, and the plastic lining of the cap is meant to be totally inert, too.... I've been offering v-vials for about a month, or even less, and have had two accidents happen; stuff that hasn't happened to me with the sturdy glass bottles after years and years of use. I've dropped sturdy glass bottles on the floor countless times, and I never had one break. Try dropping a v-vial and see what happens....."


Thanks Maestro for the answer ! I was asking myself for a week now and will definitely keep the old method alive...
 

PEARL

Well-Known Member
#9
I do like the Duran Schott Pyrex bottles and have some for larger amounts of oil, the smallest I've found are 10ml(would like if they came even smaller) and they are sturdy, I thought that the V-vials were made of the same type thick hard glass. I think I'll just stick to the sturdy glass bottles, of which I've never had a problem, and forego the V-vials.
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#10
I'm with you PEARL. I actually love Pyrex stuff. But unless Ensar, Taha and the gang are going to fill up our 10ml bottles :), I will stick with the sturdy glass bottles as well.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#11
Pyrex is a whole other ballgame. The v-vials are just brittle glass that's supposed to not leach into the oil. Tighten the cap too tightly, and the edge of the bottle will crack. Don't tighten enough, and the cap can come off, letting the oil oxidize or even spill out of the bottle.... With the Schott Duran pyrexes, it's a completely different story.... You can literally bake them in the oven and they won't break or crack. They're made to withstand extreme temperatures, won't break easily, and you can tighten the cap on as much as you like without risking an accident.

For collectors, having a 10 ml bottle of a rare oil is not something far-fetched. I personally like to keep at least 60 ml of oils that are dear to me, and I know others who like to keep at least 2 tolas (24 grams) in a 25 ml Schott Duran pyrex. They look amazing, and would make a terrific addition to any collection of rare artworks. I know someone who's into collecting very expensive art, and he likes to keep his ouds displayed in Schott Durans, amid the paintings and other rarities.....
 
#12
There are mainly 2 types of glass material I.e borosilicate and soda lime. The main advantages of borosilicate are thermal and chemical resistance. Adam used it for his Pyrex series distillation for the very same reason. In the past, Pyrex kitchenware used to be made of borosilicate material for its high thermal resistance hence less prone to thermal shock. In fact the Duran bottle that Ensar used to store his oil is made of borosilicate glass too.

Now I presume the sturdy glass bottle is made of soda-lime or equivalent, otherwise it should cost as much as the v-vial. V-vial is made of type 1 borosilicate glass, which is the most premium glass type you can get today and typically used in laboratory setting for its chemical resistance property. In terms of durability, both v vial and Duran bottles are the same since they are made of the same material. The only difference is the thickness of the glass as both are designed for different purposes. V vials are designed for small sample storage whereas Duran bottles are meant for large volume of liquid handling. While I agree the smaller v vials (0.1ml and 0.3ml) are very fragile, the larger size 3ml and above is just as tough with stronger bottle neck.

In my opinion, there are 2 advantages of using v-vials over the glass bottle.
1. Chemical resistance of borosilicate glass and cap lining vs soda-lime and plastic applicator
2. Different volume options

Actually the chemical resistance advantage is quite insignificant or even negligible. If the Oud oil is safe enough to apply on skin, then typically it is not corrosive or acidic enough to cut through the glass leading to leakables into the oil. For this reason, normal soda-lime glass is more than suffice to use as storage bottle. On the other hand, I am not too sure about the plastic applicator on its reactivity with the oil over time as I do not know what is the material type. The v vial cap lining facing the oil is made of a material called PTFE (I.e telfon coating) which is one of the most inert plastic. It is deemed the ultimate storage for volatile or reactive fluids. Having said this, Oud oil has been kept in glass bottles with applicators for decades and It seems to be working fine so far. Unless you are super nerdy and picky with storage condition (like me for example!), it is not a big pull factor to switch to v-vial based on this reason alone.

Now the biggest reason to switch over to v-vial is the wide selection of vials of different volume sizes. The options available are 0.1ml, 0.3ml, 1ml, 2ml, 3ml, 5ml and 10ml. Typically I would fill the oil almost to the brim of the vial to minimize the residual air and the ideal amount of oil to transfer to the vial is higher than the stated volume capacity. Based on my experience, 0.1ml can store 0.25gr; 0.3ml can store 0.95gr; 2ml can store 2.5gr or 3gr (there are 2 different formats) and 3ml can store 4gr.

I treasure my Oud collection a lot (well after all they had burned many holes big and small in my wallet already!) and want them to be stored as pristine as possible. The biggest issues I have is oxidation, which ruin many of my precious oil samples kept in the sampler tubes. As the volume of the head space above the oil increases with each swipe, I can imagine the oil is very slowly but surely oxidizing to death.

The V vial allows me to circumvent this issue by breaking up the oil. For a full 3gr bottle, I would usually break it up into 3 0.3ml vial (0.9gr x3) and 1 0.1ml vial (0.2gr). In this way, I can kept the oils in its pristine condition for a long period of time while enjoying the oil as and when I like. Furthermore, even though skin contamination using the plastic applicator is quite remote, I prefer not to take chance and choose to use a disposable plastic toothpick instead. In addition using a pointed toothpick this way allow me to recover the last bit of the oil.

Both the storage vessels have their pro and cons. V vial is definitely not cheap if you are going to use them for all your oils. If you are one of those who will blow through a bottle of oil in a year time, I think the sturdy glass bottle with applicator will work perfectly fine. But if you are like me who is more of a collector and like to preserve the amazing oils for future generations to come, v vials might be a better option. Unfortunately I am not rich enough to purchase oils in large enough quantity to justify using the Duran bottles! :p
 

PEARL

Well-Known Member
#13
I'm with you PEARL. I actually love Pyrex stuff. But unless Ensar, Taha and the gang are going to fill up our 10ml bottles :), I will stick with the sturdy glass bottles as well.
I know Adam has offered a few oils in tola size, maybe others will too:)
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#14
There are mainly 2 types of glass material I.e borosilicate and soda lime. The main advantages of borosilicate are thermal and chemical resistance. Adam used it for his Pyrex series distillation for the very same reason. In the past, Pyrex kitchenware used to be made of borosilicate material for its high thermal resistance hence less prone to thermal shock. In fact the Duran bottle that Ensar used to store his oil is made of borosilicate glass too.

Now I presume the sturdy glass bottle is made of soda-lime or equivalent, otherwise it should cost as much as the v-vial. V-vial is made of type 1 borosilicate glass, which is the most premium glass type you can get today and typically used in laboratory setting for its chemical resistance property. In terms of durability, both v vial and Duran bottles are the same since they are of the same material. The only difference is the thickness of the glass as both are designed for different purposes. V vials are designed for small sample storage whereas Duran bottles are meant for large volume of liquid handling. While I agree the smaller v vials (0.1ml and 0.3ml) are very fragile, the larger size 3ml and above is just as tough with stronger bottle neck.

In my opinion, there are 2 advantages of using v-vials over the glass bottle.
1. Chemical resistance of borosilicate glass and cap lining vs soda-lime and plastic applicator
2. Different volume options

Actually the chemical resistance advantage is quite insignificant or even negligible. If the Oud oil is safe enough to apply on skin, then typically it is not corrosive or acidic enough to cut through the glass leading to leakables into the oil. For this reason, normal soda-lime glass is more than suffice to use as storage bottle. On the other hand, I am not too sure about the plastic applicator on its reactivity with the oil over time as I do not know what is the material type. The v vial cap lining facing the oil is made of a material called PTFE (I.e telfon coating) which is one of the most inert plastic. It is deemed the ultimate storage for volatile or reactive fluids. Having said this, Oud oil has been kept in glass bottles with applicators for decades and It seems to be working fine so far. Unless you are super nerdy and picky with storage condition (like me for example!), it is not a big pull factor to switch to v-vial based on this reason alone.

Now the biggest reason to switch over to v-vial is the wide selection of vials of different volume sizes. The options available are 0.1ml, 0.3ml, 1ml, 2ml, 3ml, 5ml and 10ml. Typically I would fill the oil almost to the brim of the vial to minimize the residual air and the ideal amount of oil to transfer to the vial is higher than the stated volume capacity. Based on my experience, 0.1ml can store 0.25gr; 0.3ml can store 0.95gr; 2ml can store 2.5gr or 3gr (there are 2 different formats) and 3ml can store 4gr.

I treasure my Oud collection a lot (well after all they had burned many holes big and small in my wallet already!) and want them to be stored as pristine as possible. The biggest issues I have is oxidation, which ruin many of my precious oil samples kept in the sampler tubes. As the volume of the head space above the oil increases with each swipe, I can imagine the oil is very slowly but surely oxidizing to death.

The V vial allows me to circumvent this issue by breaking up the oil. For a full 3gr bottle, I would usually break it up into 3
0.3ml vial (0.9gr x3) and 1 0.1ml vial (0.2gr). In this way, I can kept the oils in its pristine condition for a long period of time while I can enjoy the oil as and when I like. Furthermore, even though skin contamination using the plastic applicator is quite remote, I prefer not to take chance and choose to use a disposable plastic toothpick instead. Furthermore using a pointed toothpick this way allow me to recover the last bit of the oil.

Both the storage vessels have their pro and cons. V vial is definitely not cheap if you are going to use them for all your oils. If you are one of those who will blow through a bottle of oil in a year time, I think the sturdy glass bottle with applicator will work perfectly fine. But if you are like me who is more of a collector and like to preserve the amazing oils for future generations to come, v vials might be a better option. Unfortunately I am not rich enough to purchase oils in a big enough quantity to justify using the Duran bottles! :p

Extremely informative and well reasoned. Thank you!
I have also found that a 3ml V-vial will store 4ml. I assume, like you said, that oud is not very corrosive. That said, since many plastics leech into water, keeping a plastic stick in a bottle for an extended time may not be ideal.
I am a V-vial guy for sure.
 

m.arif

Active Member
#15
Since the plastic applicator is the uncertain factor here, what do you guys think of bottles with glass applicator? Big leap above plastic applicator bottles or doesnt matter much?
 
#18
I know you feel oxidation is the biggest factor so i thought i would bring this question up to you. Say you are storing away something for years down the line that you will not be opening or using and there is a one gram volume of difference in the bottle whether that be in a 3ml v vial or a 10ml duran schott bottle and as you mentioned a 3ml v vial can store 4 grams and say the duran bottle only had 9g of oil with the reaming empty. Do you feel that is enough space to cause damage to the oil through oxidation or is that not really going to cause any problem? I appreciate your thoughts.
Honestly, I do not know the answer. We know for sure oxidation can accelerate the development of the oil scent profile, for good or bad from the small amount of oil in the sampler vial. I suspect there may be an exponential decreasing oxidation rate with increasing volume to headspace ratio. But I doubt we will ever know what is the optimum ratio since it will be very difficult to determine it empirically and it might differ between oils from different region.

My understanding is that Indonesian and Malaysian oils the most prone to oxidation (the distillers can correct me if I am wrong) whereas Chinese and Hindi are the the most resilient. An experienced Oudhead once told me Burmese oils such as Kyara LTD, are very prone to oxidation and its scent profile can change quite significantly. He felt you need to have at least 0.3-0.4gr of the oil in the sampler vial to curb or mitigate the oxidation effect.

Back to your example, theoretically the volume/headspace ratio is lower in the v vial (3/1) compare to the Duran bottle (9/1), and so storage using the Duran bottle is better (do note that a 10ml Duran can store more than 10gr, maybe around 13-15gr). But if say the arbitrary optimum ratio for retarded rate of oxidation (such that there is no impact on the scent development) is 2, then it does not matter what is the storage vessel since both are equally good.

Since we will never know what is this optimum ratio, I prefer to err on the safe side and just store my oils with as little headspace as possible. Overkill it may seem but those oils are too precious to me to take any chance.
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
#19
For one storing his oils for a long period of time and specially with a large gap between a cap and an oil I would highly recommend using gas, just as Taha does.
I have sampled some of the oils ( tiny amounts ) that were sitting in a large container “sealed" with gas and I can testify with confidence that this method is the most effective.