The Ensar & Taha Letters

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#41
@Ensar
Thank you! It is confusing, at least to me, so thank you very much for helping to clarify. A couple things I continually learn I actually correlate a bit to my medical training journey. First, the more I learn the more I realize there is a lot more to learn. Second, and this is even absolutely true even is western medicine despite what everyone tries pushing, it simply isn't black and white, it's an art and completely shades of grey.

So with Vietnamese oud, and I suspect oud everywhere, I'm sure there are 100's of factors that influence the final aroma, probably only a fraction of which the tree was born with. This just adds to the mysticism for me.

Thanks for the insight my friend!
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#42
I have always found the whole 'species' classification to be more of a handicap than anything else. My biggest reservation with it is, I highly doubt much of it is correct. Like, how can you say Vietnam is predominantly crassna when Vietnamese oud is so distinct to Thai & Cambodian? The species classification, in this case, causes more confusion than it explains anything. It would make you think that other factors, like soil composition and strain of fungus attacking the tree, are more relevant to the oleoresin than the type of tree producing it. Which is totally counter-intuitive.

I would have thought Vietnam to be predominantly Sinensis, just because of the prevalence of kyara-bearing trees in Vietnam historically. Yet the 'scientific' facts tell us otherwise, as Kruger pointed out. Taxonomists have only identified aquilaria crassna and baneonsis in Vietnam. Go figure! Either the science is totally wrong, or the way we think about these trees is completely misguided. Case in point: Kyara. If Vietnam was predominantly crassna, you'd find the same prevalence and concentration of Kyara-bearing trees in Thailand as you do in Vietnam. But you don't. The only other locale with a similar concentration of kyara was South China, Hainan particularly. And here you have aquilaria sinensis as the predominant species.

So one of two things: either kyara formation is not species-specific, and is more dependent on soil composition and other factors – or the trees of Vietnam are a completely different 'type' of aquilaria crassna – which also renders species categorization rather useless.

Yet another way to look at it. Suppose Vietnamese agarwood – the very best of it – is indeed sinensis. How can we explain the fact that it smells completely different to the sinensis harvested in Yunnan, Hainan, Hong Kong? Either the breakdown into species is too broad to provide any useful information (locale-specific categorization is a lot more useful, for all practical purposes), or other ecosystem-relevant factors are more pertinent.
Suosday from Cambodia! :)
Well, I just booked a bunch of Koh Kong Crassna to take back with me to cook, but unexpectedly also stumbled upon some extremely unusual species of agarwood from the mountain range in Kampot. Its pretty much the equivalent of Malaysian/South Thai Candan (incidentally also mountain oud). Never smelled something like this before, really, the best way to describe it would be that its related to Cambodian Crassna the same way the Malaysian Candan aroma is related to Malaysian Gaharu. Now I'm tempted to juice this wood as well!
And so I thought, what better time than this, to explain my take on the whole species thing... ;)

Like you, I find the whole species thing highly pretentious and useless for the most part. I have found a few exceptions though, and aside from myself, frankly I don't see why anyone else would find it useful in the least bit. Here are some exmples why I find categorization by species to be useful:
1) some Arab clients insist on Candan wood and nothing but. Show them even the sweetest south Pahangi or zestiest most vibrant Kelantani wood, and they shake their heads with firm disapproval. For the majority of my wood clients, nothing but 2 subcategories of Candan will do (only the Saudis want large Gaharu pieces), and reaction to the third type is lukewarm.
2) some of my oil customers love only certain types of Borneo Gaharu oils (e.g. Beccariana) and not most (e.g. Malaccensis), and love most of the majority of other types (Cabut, Candan 1, Candan 2, Candan3). Most of them are just referred to by name as either just Candan (without any distinction being made between them, despite differences in aroma - sometimes huge), or by their local names, which differ from tribe to tribe - and frankly, I don't remember most of those names. It gets even more confusing when the same species has multiple names, depending on the sub-tribe and locale the hunters are from.
3) for me, different species have vastly different distillation parameters. You'll recall our discussion about how to "reduce" the internal capacity of pots when you were visiting. And if you recall, it was in the context of none other than for the purpose of running small trial batches for determining baseline yield, baseline aroma etc (to determine what tweaks need to be implemented, e.g. yield boosting).

How do all these tie in?
For me, categorization is extremely important. It could be Latin, Bahasa, Dayak... doesn't really matter. I decided to stick with the Latin species names.
It allows me to create drawers of data (and neat little meaningful 'label stickers' i.e. the species names ;)), which helps with organization. For wood clients, it allows me to blind-sell to customers whose exact tastes I have learned. When the hunters bring back species X I know who to ring up, and when its species Y it'll be another guy.
As for making oils, then it allows me to decide on distillation parameters (and avoid disasters like $3,000-$10,000/bottle oils) by knowing what works for what species, and what destroys what species.
Case in point: I will never distill a Filaria oil like the 'thaqeel' that you smelled, even though the same parameters work amazingly well with Gyrinops (a species that is possibly the closest to Filaria). Smelled great, no doubt, but I'd be running a charity if I cooked Filaria like that!

Back to the Kampot wood. My gut feeling is that the wood is more similar to Hirta, or Microcarpa, or Cabut (don't know the Latin name :p), and hence I shouldn't open my Crassna drawer for distilling this. It'll have to be one of the former drawers, or to be even more precise: run a trial batch and then create an entirely new drawer for this.

Bottom line: as far as customers are concerned, I think it only helps if it allows them to pounce on/avoid species they really like/dislike. Beyond that, the specie name is about as relevant as the name of the hunters who brought down the tree.

Regarding the species in Vietnam, hmm...
Well, South Vietnamese trees are supposed to look an awful lot like Cambodian Crassna trees and as for Northern Vietnamese trees I don't know. But I have found that the northern ones are more bittersweet and scent-neutral (like Chinese) whereas the southern ones are more fruity (not unlike Khao Yai/Khmer Crassna). I have never worked directly with a Vietnamese hunter (I'm sure its a defunct job title in Vietnam now! Well, aside from the ground diggers who are searching for buried kinam trees), so my guess is as good as anyone else's. For all I know, it could all be just one specie with varying scent profiles due to topography/climate/soil composition. Or, for all I know, it could be tons of species.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#43
Oh, fun fact!
I just found out that recently a hunter harvested a tree here in Cambodia and found a bullet embedded inside, apparently from the Khmer Rouge era.
And apparently, the aroma was "Vaaaaaaaaaary Goooooood!" and unlike anything he'd ever smelled before.
Made me think about that blog post by Ensar, about one guy who's theory was that it was sulphur from bullets embedded in Vietnamese trees that triggered kinam formation.

Bah! Maybe a new thread is in order.. favorite oud by resin formation mechanism.
Maybe a sub-thread (or threads) about which bullet manufacturers' wares produce the best kinam. ;)

(jokes aside, fyi different forms of stress result in different aromas from the very same tree, e.g. worms, nesting activity, bear clawing, lightning strikes, forest fires that singe the tree's exterior, and the list goes on)
 
#44
Oh, fun fact!
I just found out that recently a hunter harvested a tree here in Cambodia and found a bullet embedded inside, apparently from the Khmer Rouge era.
And apparently, the aroma was "Vaaaaaaaaaary Goooooood!" and unlike anything he'd ever smelled before.
Made me think about that blog post by Ensar, about one guy who's theory was that it was sulphur from bullets embedded in Vietnamese trees that triggered kinam formation.

Bah! Maybe a new thread is in order.. favorite oud by resin formation mechanism.
Maybe a sub-thread (or threads) about which bullet manufacturers' wares produce the best kinam. ;)

(jokes aside, fyi different forms of stress result in different aromas from the very same tree, e.g. worms, nesting activity, bear clawing, lightning strikes, forest fires that singe the tree's exterior, and the list goes on)
instead Of drilling , Shoot the trees , Booyaka , But villagers in Bangladesh won't like that , unless drill the trees and fill it with Gun powder , Interesting article ensar posted while back , good to experiment but really want to see compost tea being used in the plantations inshaAllah
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
#45
hmmm… yeh… specie business… I always try to refer to it as an “OPINION”… not more than that…
one may also call this a “PERSONAL EXPERIENCE”… just like in Taha’s case… very good if it can be useful and bring benefit in some scenarios…
however, to me its all about PRECISE EXPERTISE of raw materials…
one must know the story of wood, see, touch, heat, burn, chew or even lick it if necessary… only then you visualise the possibilities and desires you may have in terms of how to let it release its soul…
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#46
hmmm… yeh… specie business… I always try to refer to it as an “OPINION”… not more than that…
one may also call this a “PERSONAL EXPERIENCE”… just like in Taha’s case… very good if it can be useful and bring benefit in some scenarios…
however, to me its all about PRECISE EXPERTISE of raw materials…
one must know the story of wood, see, touch, heat, burn, chew or even lick it if necessary… only then you visualise the possibilities and desires you may have in terms of how to let it release its soul…
Well, I don't know about licking, kissing, and sleeping with the wood....... :p
But seeing, indenting with your fingernails, snapping in half (to determine wood fibre density), and heating at different temperatures certainly help in figuring out the best distillation methodology.
 

RobertOne

Well-Known Member
#47
Well, what an invaluable insight into species, thank you Thomas & Taha.

Perhaps, and this is only a blind theory, cross pollination and the resulting hybridisation of species in the wild might be one of the factors that elevates wild over cultivated in the same way that mutts are almost always healthier than 'purebreds'

When my little sloping acres in FL are purchased I will clearly not be ordering from a seed supplier but asking EO, AA and FO to overnight seeds to me from the choicest trees that you harvest.

Then arrange to get them past customs in time.... oh headaches.
 

RobertOne

Well-Known Member
#48
Oh, fun fact!
I just found out that recently a hunter harvested a tree here in Cambodia and found a bullet embedded inside, apparently from the Khmer Rouge era.
And apparently, the aroma was "Vaaaaaaaaaary Goooooood!" and unlike anything he'd ever smelled before.
Made me think about that blog post by Ensar, about one guy who's theory was that it was sulphur from bullets embedded in Vietnamese trees that triggered kinam formation.

Bah! Maybe a new thread is in order.. favorite oud by resin formation mechanism.
Maybe a sub-thread (or threads) about which bullet manufacturers' wares produce the best kinam. ;)

(jokes aside, fyi different forms of stress result in different aromas from the very same tree, e.g. worms, nesting activity, bear clawing, lightning strikes, forest fires that singe the tree's exterior, and the list goes on)
I have also been thinking about specific bullet chemistry and composition and how it would alter over time.

Thankfully in the USA it's perfectly legal to buy bullets online from any time period.

The 50's to the early 70's have the right magic if these theories are correct.