The Languages of Oud

[Ensar Oud]

Not Alkhadra, I know you're just joking but I think that might not be a bad idea Habibi. But take my advice, rather than thinking for yourself and coming up with your own ideas to compose it, you could just cite someone else's research or exercise your google-fu and make it a compilation of copy and paste from the Pearl Wide Web. It seems as if that's what's en vogue, respected and suffices as actual knowledge nowadays.

Under no circumstance does a د get an 'h' at the end when being transliterated into the goode olde English tongue. It is sometimes attached to the 'd' when transliterating ض but that's because even certain speakers of Arabic pronounce the ض as a ظ. It's just easier to say that way. (Some cultures pronounce the ض as a ظ in the Fatiha, but that is another matter.)

A point many of us may be unfamiliar with in the Oud-lovin' nations of the wild West is that the tradition of 'Oudh' was brought to the Arabian peninsula by Indians. They, along with Bengalis, continue to dominate the current 'Oudh' market in the Gulf. None of them, as a rule, study Arabic. If you speak to them in Arabic, you will encounter the broken ammiya of the souks and spice bazaars which is a language unto itself, as invented and propagated by Indo-Paki merchants.

Among the throng of 'Oudh' companies owned by Indians (such as Ajmal and Rasasi) and Bengalis (such as Al-Haramain), two houses are owned and run by native speakers of Arabic: Abdul Samad al Qurashi and Arabian Oud (<-----note the spelling). Neither of these brands transliterates عود as 'Oudh'. Arabian Oud.... well.... read the logo! And Abdul Samad uses 'Aoud' which is even more correct, given the consideration given to the ع by inserting an 'A' before 'oud'.

 

[PEARL]

@Ensar you had better be serious when someone is sharing their "knowledge" with you.

I'd tend to disagree with you except for the fact that I wrote nearly the exact same thing elsewhere a few days ago. And what you said about Ajmal I hinted at when I specifically said Middle Eastern and Arabian companies, to distinguish the difference, I doubt many caught it. I'm sure you would if you read what I wrote

The issue, which was directed at you for some unknown reason, was a discourse on the character عand revolved around the "correct, more superior" possible transliteration, for the sake of Arabian tradition and history nonetheless. English transliteration...Arabic tradition...Picture that!?!? I pointed out that it would indeed be aoud or oud, and gave the benefit of the doubt, for the sake of maintaining brotherhood, by stating that it could also be oudh if the transliteration was based on the pronunciation of the word by some. It was pointed out to me too, by someone other than the OP that I should have been serious, especially when someone with "knowledge" was sharing and that I was "struggling" with the language. I took it as his attempt to rubbish my post, I found it condescending and highly humorous at the same time.

Incidentally, the OP never responded. But, if I know like I know another "educational" tantrum may be forthcoming.

*****The above words are those of PEARL and do not represent Gaharu or any of its other members.*****

 

[Alkhadra]

@Ensar The issue, which was directed at you for some unknown reason.

Don't act oblivious to why the issue was directed to Ensar.. I specifically said on Ouddict that:
"Ensar was the one who wanted to start the schism between the two words, posting many times "Oud without the h" as if Oud with an h is inferior to his Oud in anyway. Claims like these make would make any vendor want to clear things up for the consumer to better understand the nature of the situation."

I hope nobody thinks I am pro/anti any vendor, I just like Oud, Oudh, Aoud. I'm not on anyones side. Was just explaining the reality of the situation.

and as for @Ensar's post... interesting wallah, I'll have to look further into stream of thought.

 

[Ensar Oud]

Don't act oblivious to why the issue was directed to Ensar.. I specifically said on Ouddict that:
"Ensar was the one who wanted to start the schism between the two words, posting many times "Oud without the h" as if Oud with an h is inferior to his Oud in anyway. Claims like these make would make any vendor want to clear things up for the consumer to better understand the nature of the situation."

I hope nobody thinks I am pro/anti any vendor, I just like Oud, Oudh, Aoud. I'm not on anyones side. Was just explaining the reality of the situation.

and as for @Ensar's post... interesting wallah, I'll have to look further into stream of thought.

This is all true and correct. I made an Instagram post...

I have yet to smell an Oud with an 'h' that compares to my oud, and I am not bragging. You should know better. You have Kynam No 1

 

[Alkhadra]

This is all true and correct. I made an Instagram post...

I have yet to smell an Oud with an 'h' that compares to my oud, and I am not bragging. You should know better. You have Kynam No 1

True, I do own it, but Kynam No 1 is far from the aesthetic of what middle eastern Oud is.. people there don't care much for riding the Kynam dragon. Different culture, and many people I know would prefer a nice Hindi Oudh, or Oud...over Kynam no. 1, whether with an h or not. See, the problem with all this is that preference in scent is purely subjective, and so when we see someone who prefers something and we don't agree with them, we can easily say their nose isn't refined (cannot appreciate art) and that it is a shame such an Oud/Oudh is wasted on them.

I have Oudh's that I prefer to my Oud's, and Oud's I prefer to my Oudh's, and I have plenty of both, there are 98 year old Hindi Oudh's out there, and Hindi Oud's, and Chinese Oud's, and Chinese Oudh's... haha I digress..

Kynam no. 1 is quite amazing, and I've heard from some people that it is the best thing they've ever smelt, and I've come across many Oudh's that are quite amazing as well.. and I've heard from many people that Al Shareef I is the best Oudh/Oud they've ever smelt..

You can go tomorrow and change Ensar Oud to Ensar Oudh if you wanted, and all your Oud's would become Oudh's over night.. there's no real criteria in my mind for categorizing Oud and Oudh. .... so, to me this terminology is just silly.

 

[rodeoclown]

One piddly difference between oud and oudh is that most search engines ignore words with fewer than four letters, making oudh easier to find online.

 

[Ensar Oud]

True, I do own it, but Kynam No 1 is far from the aesthetic of what middle eastern Oud is.. people there don't care much for riding the Kynam dragon. Different culture, and many people I know would prefer a nice Hindi Oudh, or Oud...over Kynam no. 1, whether with an h or not. See, the problem with all this is that preference in scent is purely subjective, and so when we see someone who prefers something and we don't agree with them, we can easily say their nose isn't refined (cannot appreciate art) and that it is a shame such an Oud/Oudh is wasted on them.

I have Oudh's that I prefer to my Oud's, and Oud's I prefer to my Oudh's, and I have plenty of both, there are 98 year old Hindi Oudh's out there, and Hindi Oud's, and Chinese Oud's, and Chinese Oudh's... haha I digress..

Kynam no. 1 is quite amazing, and I've come across many Oudh's that are quite amazing as well.. and I've heard from many people that Al Shareef I is the best Oudh/Oud they've ever smelt in their entire lives till this date, and these are people who have also tried Kinamic Oud's.. so, to me this terminology is just silly.

You can go tomorrow and change Ensar Oud to Ensar Oudh if you wanted, and all your Oud's would become Oudh's over night.. there's no real criteria in my mind for categorizing Oud and Oudh.

Spoken like a true deconstruction philosopher and gentleman...
...يا سيدي حياك الله


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alkhadra]

Spoken like a true deconstruction philosopher and gentleman...
...يا سيدي حياك الله


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

الله يبقيك, تحياتي لكم

 

[Ouddict]

الله يبقيك, تحياتي لكم

You sure that you are a young student?! ما شاء الله your point was made very well.

 

[PEARL]

Don't act oblivious to why the issue was directed to Ensar.. I specifically said on Ouddict that:

As salaamu alaykum Alkhadra,

You did indeed state why you thought it was directed at Ensar; but that doesn't mean I agree/d with you.

On Ouddict I correctly added that it would/could be first aoud then oud or possibly oudh for the reasons I gave; Adressing the first part of the OP. I have no problem with either and in fact prefer oudh, as I stated, as it is more aesthetically pleasing to my eye, but that doesn't make it correct or the oil smell any better in reality.

First you have to understand my perspective, I don't usually speak without reflecting on the matter and/or investigating. When I read, "I had to address this publicly because it was brought to my attention(as a vendor who spells oudh with the h) that our brother Ensar@Gaharu was making some comments about Oud and Oudh". I wondered why he was addressing Ensar because it's not something he started, that I can ascertain. I addressed this by telling of the ways I've seen the term used by some including myself as a subjective identifier of quality; @Oudamberlove stated how he used the term as well. It's not something that just started, as can be seen here from way back in 2012 http://gaharu.com/index.php?threads/face-to-face-with-‘arabian’-oud-part-2.90/#post-1980 where Ensar uses it as an identifier of quality that distinguishes oud as he sees it and oudh sold in the mainstream ME market big houses. Whether it's oud, Oud, Oudh, or Aoud, there different usage predates Ensar, ASO, gaharu.com, ouddict.com, basenotes.com, etc. And in looking at the way I've seen Ensar use the terms, has absolutely nothing to do with ASO for him to address Ensar, as I stated. Use'em if ya got'em, no harm, no foul.

أحب كل منكم السادة، جميل المجتمع لدينا
جزاك الله خيرا
~أنور

 

[Alkhadra]

As salaamu alaykum Alkhadra,

You did indeed state why you thought it was directed at Ensar; but that doesn't mean I agree/d with you.

On Ouddict I correctly added that it would/could be first aoud then oud or possibly oudh for the reasons I gave; Adressing the first part of the OP. I have no problem with either and in fact prefer oudh, as I stated, as it is more aesthetically pleasing to my eye, but that doesn't make it correct or the oil smell any better in reality.

First you have to understand my perspective, I don't usually speak without reflecting on the matter and/or investigating. When I read, "I had to address this publicly because it was brought to my attention(as a vendor who spells oudh with the h) that our brother Ensar@Gaharu was making some comments about Oud and Oudh". I wondered why he was addressing Ensar because it's not something he started, that I can ascertain. I addressed this by telling of the ways I've seen the term used by some including myself as a subjective identifier of quality; @Oudamberlove stated how he used the term as well. It's not something that just started, as can be seen here from way back in 2012 http://gaharu.com/index.php?threads/face-to-face-with-‘arabian’-oud-part-2.90/#post-1980 where Ensar uses it as an identifier of quality that distinguishes oud as he sees it and oudh sold in the mainstream ME market big houses. Whether it's oud, Oud, Oudh, or Aoud, there different usage predates Ensar, ASO, gaharu.com, ouddict.com, basenotes.com, etc. And in looking at the way I've seen Ensar use the terms, has absolutely nothing to do with ASO for him to address Ensar, as I stated. Use'em if ya got'em, no harm, no foul.

أحب كل منكم السادة، جميل المجتمع لدينا
جزاك الله خيرا
~أنور

Wa Alaykm Assalam Pearl,
It is not why I thought it was directed to Ensar, more so it was the reality of the situation. You do not need to agree with me on the reason why Al Shareef's post is directed to Ensar, you can just ask Al Shareef for yourself and he will tell you his reasons rather than you and I discussing it.

In the past there have been posts regarding this topic from Ensar that distinguishes his 'Oud' from 'Oudh'. You are also right in saying Ensar is not the first person to distinguish Oud from Oudh. The problem is when Ensar inherently states that 'Oud' is superior to 'Oudh', which he did in the past in response to Alexander Oudh (I can't seem to find those posts)... Now, the problem that arises is that many people here are still just learning about Oud/Oudh, and if people are led to believe that Oud is better than Oudh, then it is not in the interest of sellers who sell Oudh. Imagine if you were a seller, and someone decided to define previously distinguished labels, in which the definition directly results in labeling your product as inferior. I think your position would be similar to that of Al Shareef's, which is why he opened a thread regarding it (which is now locked).

السلام عليكم,
و السلام على من اتبع الهدى,
و صل على سيد الانام, الرسول المصطفى عليه الصلاة و السلام
جزاك الله خيرا
- مالك

 

[Simla House]

My reasoning for adding an "h" has certainly been A) living in Mumbai, and being accustomed to it anglicized as such, and B) not wanting to confuse it with the instrument, which I've always seen written without a "h"

Perhaps we should only refer to it here as العود.
I figure even for the non-Arabic speaking enthusiasts of العود, who spend their time online everyday discussing العود , sharing their love for العود, devoting a portion of their earnings to العود, we can all learn to read العود, spell العود, say العود

 

[Oudamberlove]

if people are led to believe that Oud is better than Oudh, then it is not in the interest of sellers who sell Oudh.

When I was new to oud, I did not know about EO or ASO. My challenge was to find "Pure Oud", and I have many bottles of non-oud to prove it. If someone somehow finds the website of Al Shareef Oudh or Ensar Oud, they are so very very lucky, they have found "Pure Oud". Also, if they find Gaharu and Ouddict Forums, and do some reading, then again, they are very very lucky. They will learn what's generally accepted as "good" or "not good" or "good for the money". These lucky oud consumers will quickly realize that the spelling doesn't matter. I don't believe ASO should be concerned about any misconceptions that new buyers may have concerning the quality of His Oudhs, because the information about Oud vs Oudh is imbedded in these forums for the most part, so any newcomer would most likely read about how good his oils are, before they come across these Oud/Oudh discussions.

Back to the statement I am replying to,,,
The interest of sellers selling Oudh........hmmmmmmmmmmm.........I believe that over 90% of people buying oud around the world are buying OudH from OudH vendors. We are the lucky few who get a taste of something different, Artisanal Oud. It's a novelty we indulge in, and won't change Oudh in the big picture, not even in the future, because Wild Artisanal Oud will be a thing of the past one day. I predict the future of Artisanal Organic Oudh to survive, but will still be 2% of the total world market of Oudh, and the world supply by then may not even be from Aquilaria trees.

 

[PEARL]

@Alkhadra

I was just about the write something to you on ouddict, which I'll say here and there. You seem to me to be pragmatic and passionate while at the same time not being quickly moved by emotion, well balanced and even keeled. One who is sensible as well as having the ability to recognize what's sensible. Someone I can enjoy having a conversation with whether we agree or disagree. Over

Now, let's take a look at the bigger picture and other side of the coin; and using your logic. Wouldn't it be just as much of a disservice to those new to oud/oudh to read that oud(without the h) is Tom Ford, Armani, Dark Vanilla and the worst, Lynx body spray as ASO pointed out? Using your logic, wouldn't that have the same effect of labeling a product called oud as inferior?

IMO Ensar has defined and told us what he means by oudh and it is in no way directed at ASO or his product, not years ago, not last week or today. Whereas ASO directs his attack right at EO by name nonetheless. We're looking at two distinctly different situations; something taken way out of context and assumed to be directed at ASO by whoever told ASO vs blatant and misdirected attack where EO is mentioned by name.

While you may still disagree, I ask you to consider my perspective and ponder the questions I asked and my presentation.

And to be clear, I have no beef or side with Ensar, we've agreed and disagreed public and private; likewise I have no beef or side with Al Shareef Oudh's Jawad, we've agreed and disagreed public and private. Sometimes disagreements become pasionate, that is the nature of imperfect man.

May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala increase you and yours with all that is good and halal beyond measure, as he has done me and mine.

 

[Alkhadra]

@Alkhadra

I was just about the write something to you on ouddict, which I'll say here and there. You seem to me to be pragmatic and passionate while at the same time not being quickly moved by emotion, well balanced and even keeled. One who is sensible as well as having the ability to recognize what's sensible. Someone I can enjoy having a conversation with whether we agree or disagree. Over

Now, let's take a look at the bigger picture and other side of the coin; and using your logic. Wouldn't it be just as much of a disservice to those new to oud/oudh to read that oud(without the h) is Tom Ford, Armani, Dark Vanilla and the worst, Lynx body spray as ASO pointed out? Using your logic, wouldn't that have the same effect of labeling a product called oud as inferior?

Jazak Allah Khair Akhi,

Now..regarding your comments on Al Shareef defining Oud within the same category as Tom Ford, Armani, Dark Vanilla, Lynx body spray...etc. I agree that it does the same disservice to those new to Oud/Oudh, but I also see it as a defensive counter-attack to the theme of Oud being superior than Oudh, and the thing is, both can argue their stand-points to a certain extent.

Ensar can argue that he brought Oud to the west, and that it was his entrepreneurship that shaped Oud as the way us folks on Ouddict/Gaharu view Oud today, he made Oud much more accessible to western users by introducing genres of oils that were uncommon before. He can also argue to his clientele that his new innovative Oud is superior to that of old traditional Oudh whilst claiming that he was the first to start distilling incense grade and sinking grade wood while others didn't.

Al Shareef can argue that Oudh is a part of his heritage, and that he comes from a family that have been purveyors of Oudh for generations, and that Oud is an innovation that categorically fits with that of Western tastes, which started with the Synthetic Oud perfume craze in the US, and that this new innovation on Oud oils is inferior to the Old traditional smelling oils whilst claiming he has far more experienced due to having generations of Oudh heritage while others don't.

I don't agree with any of them. Just my two cents on how I see things.

May he increase you as well Akhi, as well as grant you peace and prosperity through your life, may he also bless you with a ton of Oud/Oudh from time to time to enjoy

 

[Ouddict]

Jazak Allah Khair Akhi,
He can also argue to his clientele that his new innovative Oud is superior to that of old traditional Oudh whilst claiming that he was the first to start distilling incense grade and sinking grade wood while others didn't.

Simply untrue... what about all these Ouds distilled way back when, even before Ensar was selling adulterated Oud on eBay circa 2002? That by the way is not a dig or a criticism, it is just fact - everyone starts somewhere and this is part of a learning journey we are all on and is perfectly normal. The likes of Oud Royale... was that made from inferior wood?!

I would be the first to say that while Ensar did not introduce me to Oud (that was Sidi Khalid Miller from Silk Roads Ends back in 2005) he certainly opened my eyes (and many others) to what was out there, as he discovered himself after being told to go to the Oud producing regions by others who knew before him.

Regarding Oud vs Oudh, no one really cares about the transliteration... it was just some of the comments here that made a dig at the spelling of Oudh and implied that it was some other degraded category of Oud. To me Oud = Oudh... its the same thing. Some in the Middle East use the Oud spelling such as Arabian Oud and some use the other. No big deal.

 

[PEARL]

@Ouddict Firstly and for clarification, what you quoted in your post as seen below is NOT something I wrote or suggested, as it shows, but rather what @Alkhadra wrote. How it ended up like that in your post must be a computer glitch.

He can also argue to his clientele that his new innovative Oud is superior to that of old traditional Oudh whilst claiming that he was the first to start distilling incense grade and sinking grade wood while others didn't.

Secondly, in practice no one really cares about the transliteration as you stated; use whatever you want as myself and others have stated.

However, from an Arabic grammatical perspective oudh is wrong, it would be aoud or oud as I stated in my very post response to the OP on ouddict.com. I included oudh in that post for the sake of brotherhood. Despite me being correct and approaching the matter in the spirit of أدب you rubbished my post stating things like "I should be serious when someone with knowledge is sharing", that I'm "straining to muster knowledge of the alphabet", that it "makes no sense to someone who has studied the language", asking me if I realize it. Please forgive me if I take those statements out of context or imply something that you did not intend, and put yourself in my shoe, but how I comprehended that was you basically saying, "ASO knows better than you, so sit back when he's talking, you're wrong and everybody sees it, don't you realize that". And all that despite me actually being correct. I really wanted to ask you if you at least speak conversational Arabic, read it or write it; but I didn't want to be assumptive or presumptuous so I decided to leave it alone. I just wanted to point that out to you because sometimes we don't realize how our words can appear to others; I don't take internet grumbles personally, Insha'Allah neither do you.

Sometimes how we are ourselves, we tend to project those qualities onto others: I'm conscious and I don't "mistakenly" make implications, hint, innuendo, etc.; when I do it, it's done with purpose. Maybe I'm projecting that onto you, if I am and you did not intend those statements above thusly, forgive me.

With all that said, @Ouddict we've agreed and disagreed public and private, but understand that I have no problem with you, Insha'Allah we can continue our relationship and with the realization that we are not always going to agree.

 

[Ouddict]

@Ouddict Firstly and for clarification, what you quoted in your post as seen below is NOT something I wrote or suggested, as it shows, but rather what @Alkhadra wrote. How it ended up like that in your post must be a computer glitch.

Secondly, in practice no one really cares about the transliteration as you stated; use whatever you want as myself and others have stated.

However, from an Arabic grammatical perspective oudh is wrong, it would be aoud or oud as I stated in my very post response to the OP on ouddict.com. I included oudh in that post for the sake of brotherhood. Despite me being correct and approaching the matter in the spirit of أدب you rubbished my post stating things like "I should be serious when someone with knowledge is sharing", that I'm "straining to muster knowledge of the alphabet", that it "makes no sense to someone who has studied the language", asking me if I realize it. Please forgive me if I take those statements out of context or imply something that you did not intend, and put yourself in my shoe, but how I comprehended that was you basically saying, "ASO knows better than you, so sit back when he's talking, you're wrong and everybody sees it, don't you realize that". And all that despite me actually being correct. I really wanted to ask you if you at least speak conversational Arabic, read it or write it; but I didn't want to be assumptive or presumptuous so I decided to leave it alone. I just wanted to point that out to you because sometimes we don't realize how our words can appear to others; I don't take internet grumbles personally, Insha'Allah neither do you.

Sometimes how we are ourselves, we tend to project those qualities onto others: I'm conscious and I don't "mistakenly" make implications, hint, innuendo, etc.; when I do it, it's done with purpose. Maybe I'm projecting that onto you, if I am and you did not intend those statements above thusly, forgive me.

With all that said, @Ouddict we've agreed and disagreed public and private, but understand that I have no problem with you, Insha'Allah we can continue our relationship and with the realization that we are not always going to agree.

Looks like it was some kind of computer error... my point still stands regardless of who wrote it.

 

[PEARL]

@Ouddict I have no problem with your point Habibi, just pointing out that I didn't say what was quoted, for clarity for anyone reading, no harm, no foul. And please excuse me for addressing you and not greeting you...

As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatallah wa barakatuhu Sidi Ouddict

 

[Ouddict]

@Ouddict I have no problem with your point Habibi, just pointing out that I didn't say what was quoted, for clarity for anyone reading, no harm, no foul. And please excuse me for addressing you and not greeting you...

As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatallah wa barakatuhu Sidi Ouddict

No offence taken either.