Let Oleoresin Talk (LOT) Project
- Thread starter Taha
- Start date
A
1) Since you've said language has rules, then lets follow the rules of the word Oud.
Oud = wood. Lets assume that Oud = wood in this instance refers to woods of the Aquilaria/Gyrinops species (otherwise Sandalwood might as well be Oud).
2) Oud is not Oud oil. Oud is Oud. Oud oil is Oud oil.
To say that a CO2 extraction is not Oud oil is one thing (call it an Oud extraction if you will). That would be under the assertion that a CO2 extraction is not an oil. To say it's not Oud is another.
3) Oud is a very distinct aromatic... Oud is a very diverse aromatic.
Oud = wood. Lets assume that Oud = wood in this instance refers to woods of the Aquilaria/Gyrinops species (otherwise Sandalwood might as well be Oud).
2) Oud is not Oud oil. Oud is Oud. Oud oil is Oud oil.
To say that a CO2 extraction is not Oud oil is one thing (call it an Oud extraction if you will). That would be under the assertion that a CO2 extraction is not an oil. To say it's not Oud is another.
3) Oud is a very distinct aromatic... Oud is a very diverse aromatic.
Habibi this is the English language we are conversing in. Arabic definitions and usages of the etymological root/origin of the word do not hold water in English.
In current English usage, 'Oud' denotes the essential oil of agarwood (look up 'essential oil' and you'll see the distillation methods used to make all essential oils). 'Oud wood' denotes agarwood. It's the inverse of the Arabic usage where the word 'dehn' must be attached to 'oud' when referring to oud oil.
In current English usage, 'Oud' denotes the essential oil of agarwood (look up 'essential oil' and you'll see the distillation methods used to make all essential oils). 'Oud wood' denotes agarwood. It's the inverse of the Arabic usage where the word 'dehn' must be attached to 'oud' when referring to oud oil.
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A
Habibi the English word for Oud is Agarwood. The Arabic word for Agarwood is Oud. Oud means Oud.
If I hold a piece of Agarwood. It is called Oud. If I have an oil made from that piece, it is called Oud oil or Agarwood oil. It does not matter what language we are speaking in. The definition will not spontaneously change akhi. Give what I said some thought.
If I hold a piece of Agarwood. It is called Oud. If I have an oil made from that piece, it is called Oud oil or Agarwood oil. It does not matter what language we are speaking in. The definition will not spontaneously change akhi. Give what I said some thought.
A
Really? I thought it was called Aloeswood! 
Agarwood oil = Oud. That's the current English usage.
Agarwood oil = Oud. That's the current English usage.
Well akhi, the same way some Arabs use the word wrong, it just so happens some English speakers are using it wrong as well. If the whole world starts calling Sandalwood Oud, it sure doesn't make them right.
Sure, Aloeswood, Eagleswood, whatever tickles your fancy
Well akhi, the same way some Arabs use the word wrong, it just so happens some English speakers are using it wrong as well. If the whole world starts calling Sandalwood Oud, it sure doesn't make them right.
Well akhi, the same way some Arabs use the word wrong, it just so happens some English speakers are using it wrong as well. If the whole world starts calling Sandalwood Oud, it sure doesn't make them right.
@Ensar I was merely commenting on the first para of his post. Oud vs Oudh debate. Thats all brother. I have always maintained a position regarding you being a pinoneer of Artisanal Oud. So, I request you not to misunderstand me. I am not a huge fan of Mr AlKhadra s stance on Oud on both forums however I am no one to contradict someone. He had a valid point taking in consideration both forums. I am neither a vendor nor a pusher. I adore good work. Cheers
A
Actually...yes, I have heard that plenty of times. Most of the time from people who speak Arabic.
I completely understand your position on this topic. Oud oil became Oud, and Oud became Oud wood. I understand the usage on these forums.
My point is that even if people use it, when we come to actual definitions, we cannot use contemporary usage. Rather we must employ the actual definitions. If Oud oil became Oud and Oud became Oud wood, then where does a CO2 extraction fit? It cannot fall into the 'Oud wood' category, neither can it fall into the 'Oud oil' category (being an extraction). Thus, due to contemporary usage, it is not Oud.. When in fact, it is Oud See the problem I'm aiming at? Contemporary usage works most of the time, until it doesn't..
I have enjoyed this discussion with you, I finally understood your position on the topic more clearly.
Not a huge fan.. so you're a small fan at least? Just kidding brother. It's a pleasure having you back, you disappeared for some time.
I completely understand your position on this topic. Oud oil became Oud, and Oud became Oud wood. I understand the usage on these forums.
My point is that even if people use it, when we come to actual definitions, we cannot use contemporary usage. Rather we must employ the actual definitions. If Oud oil became Oud and Oud became Oud wood, then where does a CO2 extraction fit? It cannot fall into the 'Oud wood' category, neither can it fall into the 'Oud oil' category (being an extraction). Thus, due to contemporary usage, it is not Oud.. When in fact, it is Oud
See the problem I'm aiming at? Contemporary usage works most of the time, until it doesn't..I have enjoyed this discussion with you, I finally understood your position on the topic more clearly.
Not a huge fan.. so you're a small fan at least?
Just kidding brother. It's a pleasure having you back, you disappeared for some time.
Actually...yes, I have heard that plenty of times. Most of the time from people who speak Arabic.
I completely understand your position on this topic. Oud oil became Oud, and Oud became Oud wood. I understand the usage on these forums.
My point is that even if people use it, when we come to actual definitions, we cannot use contemporary usage. Rather we must employ the actual definitions. If Oud oil became Oud and Oud became Oud wood, then where does a CO2 extraction fit? It cannot fall into the 'Oud wood' category, neither can it fall into the 'Oud oil' category (being an extraction). Thus, due to contemporary usage, it is not Oud.. When in fact, it is Oud See the problem I'm aiming at? Contemporary usage works most of the time, until it doesn't..
I have enjoyed this discussion with you, I finally understood your position on the topic more clearly.
Not a huge fan.. so you're a small fan at least? Just kidding brother. It's a pleasure having you back, you disappeared for some time.
I completely understand your position on this topic. Oud oil became Oud, and Oud became Oud wood. I understand the usage on these forums.
My point is that even if people use it, when we come to actual definitions, we cannot use contemporary usage. Rather we must employ the actual definitions. If Oud oil became Oud and Oud became Oud wood, then where does a CO2 extraction fit? It cannot fall into the 'Oud wood' category, neither can it fall into the 'Oud oil' category (being an extraction). Thus, due to contemporary usage, it is not Oud.. When in fact, it is Oud
See the problem I'm aiming at? Contemporary usage works most of the time, until it doesn't..I have enjoyed this discussion with you, I finally understood your position on the topic more clearly.
Not a huge fan.. so you're a small fan at least?
Just kidding brother. It's a pleasure having you back, you disappeared for some time.
I’ve seen the distinction made with the phrase “dehn al oud.” I understand that to mean “oil of oud.” This implies that the wood itself, in Arabic usage, is called “oud.” In English it seems that “oud” is the processed oil which comes from a substance known as “oud wood” (or aloeswood or agarwood.) Kind of like calling bread “raw toast.”
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Chamkeila vs Shano Shokat.
Mahabali (and Al-Syed Mahabali – not a single bottle sold) vs Kalyani (and the unreleased, and now likely never to be released, Lavanya).
King Koh Kong vs Samrosa.
Royal Pursat vs Raksmey.
Sutera Ungu vs Ukupan Kayu.
Kehebatan vs Taman Negara.
Khmer Special K vs Kanzen.
And many others.
What a monumental fail of an attempt to help the online community of oud lovers get to know the 'what's and 'why's behind differences in scent profiles.
I've tried my best. I've tried to point out where its a difference because of techniques or raw material grade, and at times both.
But if some want to think that this is all just a scam, JK Rowlings' next work, or marketing fluff, then so be it.
Some have never bought a single oil from me, and yet have already decreed what is what (and it boils down to "Taha is just talking rubbish"). Amazingly enough, most of those assumptions have been wrong.
Any way, since I started this miserable fail of a project... I'll throw in my two cents. When I say 'oleoresin' I'm referring to the good stuff aka the black stuff aka the stuff you reach for to place on your burner if you're given the option to select between a higher vs lower grade chip. Call it what you want. We all know what I'm referring to.
It makes a difference when you heat this vs that.
And YES it makes a difference when you distill this vs that.
Some may claim otherwise. I am literally sitting next to a boiling pot right now, so I can tell you I speak from experience.
(I heard through the grapevine that there's even chatter that I don't actually distill oud oils myself... umm, okay)
I thought I should clarify a few more things:
- All my distillations are low temperature with a temp variation, Gen3 and Gen4 hit all the same temperatures, and the duration does not dictate the 'Gen'. Case in point: Au Luong and Ayu (Gen3) were cooked for less than a week (I forget exactly) whereas King Koh Kong and Kehebatan (Gen4) were cooked for 3 and 2 weeks respectively.
Khmer Special K v1 is Gen3 and a very light colored oil. Khmer Special K v2 is Gen3 and nearly black. So color is no indication either.
- I didn't use terms like 'Special K' and 'Gen' etc interchangeably, because they are not.
- I apologize to everyone for coining these terms. I thought I was helping folks grasp (and discover, and pinpoint) what they enjoy. Clearly that was a mistake. It has only brought about ridicule and mockery.
- I am not against tradition. I have learned under many veterans, in person, sweat on brow, some who have made ME blush when they would thank me as I would share what I've learned from others, along with some of my own discoveries. I didn't invent distillation, sorry to shatter your illusions if that's what you THOUGHT I've been claiming.
But I certainly do believe that tradition is not something you hang up on the wall or set on a shelf, that's called a relic or a showpiece. REAL tradition is something that's alive, real tradition is learning from masters, and then improving upon what you've learned if and when you see gaps.
Terms like 'oleoresin', 'auxiliary notes', 'x-axis' etc were not carted out to the unwary to take advantage of people's trust or naivity. I genuinely thought I was helping folks better understand their oud oils, by coining terms to help put words to thoughts.
Clearly I was mistaken.
Parting note: there's waaaaay more to distillation than high vs low temp, copper vs steel, soak vs no soak, and condenser orientation. You can easily learn these things in one day. So if that is the beginning and end to the knowledge that one may have about distillation, well, all I can say is.. the unawareness of Plato's men in the cave does not disprove the existence of the sun.
Have a nice day.
Mahabali (and Al-Syed Mahabali – not a single bottle sold) vs Kalyani (and the unreleased, and now likely never to be released, Lavanya).
King Koh Kong vs Samrosa.
Royal Pursat vs Raksmey.
Sutera Ungu vs Ukupan Kayu.
Kehebatan vs Taman Negara.
Khmer Special K vs Kanzen.
And many others.
What a monumental fail of an attempt to help the online community of oud lovers get to know the 'what's and 'why's behind differences in scent profiles.
I've tried my best. I've tried to point out where its a difference because of techniques or raw material grade, and at times both.
But if some want to think that this is all just a scam, JK Rowlings' next work, or marketing fluff, then so be it.
Some have never bought a single oil from me, and yet have already decreed what is what (and it boils down to "Taha is just talking rubbish"). Amazingly enough, most of those assumptions have been wrong.
Any way, since I started this miserable fail of a project... I'll throw in my two cents. When I say 'oleoresin' I'm referring to the good stuff aka the black stuff aka the stuff you reach for to place on your burner if you're given the option to select between a higher vs lower grade chip. Call it what you want. We all know what I'm referring to.
It makes a difference when you heat this vs that.
And YES it makes a difference when you distill this vs that.
Some may claim otherwise. I am literally sitting next to a boiling pot right now, so I can tell you I speak from experience.
(I heard through the grapevine that there's even chatter that I don't actually distill oud oils myself... umm, okay)
I thought I should clarify a few more things:
- All my distillations are low temperature with a temp variation, Gen3 and Gen4 hit all the same temperatures, and the duration does not dictate the 'Gen'. Case in point: Au Luong and Ayu (Gen3) were cooked for less than a week (I forget exactly) whereas King Koh Kong and Kehebatan (Gen4) were cooked for 3 and 2 weeks respectively.
Khmer Special K v1 is Gen3 and a very light colored oil. Khmer Special K v2 is Gen3 and nearly black. So color is no indication either.
- I didn't use terms like 'Special K' and 'Gen' etc interchangeably, because they are not.
- I apologize to everyone for coining these terms. I thought I was helping folks grasp (and discover, and pinpoint) what they enjoy. Clearly that was a mistake. It has only brought about ridicule and mockery.
- I am not against tradition. I have learned under many veterans, in person, sweat on brow, some who have made ME blush when they would thank me as I would share what I've learned from others, along with some of my own discoveries. I didn't invent distillation, sorry to shatter your illusions if that's what you THOUGHT I've been claiming.
But I certainly do believe that tradition is not something you hang up on the wall or set on a shelf, that's called a relic or a showpiece. REAL tradition is something that's alive, real tradition is learning from masters, and then improving upon what you've learned if and when you see gaps.
Terms like 'oleoresin', 'auxiliary notes', 'x-axis' etc were not carted out to the unwary to take advantage of people's trust or naivity. I genuinely thought I was helping folks better understand their oud oils, by coining terms to help put words to thoughts.
Clearly I was mistaken.
Parting note: there's waaaaay more to distillation than high vs low temp, copper vs steel, soak vs no soak, and condenser orientation. You can easily learn these things in one day. So if that is the beginning and end to the knowledge that one may have about distillation, well, all I can say is.. the unawareness of Plato's men in the cave does not disprove the existence of the sun.
Have a nice day.
Storm, meet teacup.
Accuracy is important, so for all non-native native speakers of the English language, especially rowdy colonials and brummies, here are my definitions costing exactly two cents, red or otherwise. Samuel Johnson mode initiated.
*beep*
Oud
Aquilaria steam or water vapour distilled essential oil composed mostly of aromatics and in lesser part: blood, sweat, tears, financial to anatomical woes for the distillers and mostly joy for the consumer.
Sub species: CO2 extract. Should be judged on a case-by-case basis according to quality.
Oud Wood
Aquilaria powder, slivers or whole chunks. Can apply also to a finished or carved item. Partially mythological grades of quality and magnetically attracted to China in the same manner as a lodestone which is ironic* as rusty metal seems to end up in it a lot.
*also ironic, re: ferrous
Toxic Abomination
Gaharu Racun or adulterated oud (note the use of lower case) See: Arabian oud, Et.al.
Gaharu Forum Member
Unruly bunch of wonderful rabble with more theories and opinions than centipedes have legs per member. Suggested remedies include tear gas and cattle-prods. Psychotherapy likely ineffectual after exposure to Oud.
Gaharu Forum Moderators
A mixed bunch. Types vary from 'lovely chap' to characters that by rights deserve their own SCP classification. You know who you are.
Luigi
Philanthropist but presumably deeply masochistic. No other explanation is likely.
ouddict.com
A difficult place to be.
Also See: Glasgow, Mos Eisley, East Kilbride, Soi Cowboy.
Work
That which is performed to obtain Oud.
Money
Oud vouchers.
Grandmothers / Kidneys
Items that forum members are often tempted to sell in order to obtain Oud.
.......I hope this helps?
Accuracy is important, so for all non-native native speakers of the English language, especially rowdy colonials and brummies, here are my definitions costing exactly two cents, red or otherwise. Samuel Johnson mode initiated.
*beep*
Oud
Aquilaria steam or water vapour distilled essential oil composed mostly of aromatics and in lesser part: blood, sweat, tears, financial to anatomical woes for the distillers and mostly joy for the consumer.
Sub species: CO2 extract. Should be judged on a case-by-case basis according to quality.
Oud Wood
Aquilaria powder, slivers or whole chunks. Can apply also to a finished or carved item. Partially mythological grades of quality and magnetically attracted to China in the same manner as a lodestone which is ironic* as rusty metal seems to end up in it a lot.
*also ironic, re: ferrous
Toxic Abomination
Gaharu Racun or adulterated oud (note the use of lower case) See: Arabian oud, Et.al.
Gaharu Forum Member
Unruly bunch of wonderful rabble with more theories and opinions than centipedes have legs per member. Suggested remedies include tear gas and cattle-prods. Psychotherapy likely ineffectual after exposure to Oud.
Gaharu Forum Moderators
A mixed bunch. Types vary from 'lovely chap' to characters that by rights deserve their own SCP classification. You know who you are.
Luigi
Philanthropist but presumably deeply masochistic. No other explanation is likely.
ouddict.com
A difficult place to be.
Also See: Glasgow, Mos Eisley, East Kilbride, Soi Cowboy.
Work
That which is performed to obtain Oud.
Money
Oud vouchers.
Grandmothers / Kidneys
Items that forum members are often tempted to sell in order to obtain Oud.
.......I hope this helps?
Distillation of oud is always an interesting topic, I for one am glad to read all your posts Taha.
I also feel that your style is so Avant-Garde that a true oud connoisseur should experience at least some of your oils. BTW Ayu has been beckoning me daily since I got it. Lately, Malaysian oils and woods have swayed me into favoring them as my favorite type second to Hindis, and above Cambodis. Ayu is indeed a Malaysian delicacy. It's strange that as I am enjoying it's aroma, I am simultaneously influenced by it's color, making me associate the two as one.
I also feel that your style is so Avant-Garde that a true oud connoisseur should experience at least some of your oils. BTW Ayu has been beckoning me daily since I got it. Lately, Malaysian oils and woods have swayed me into favoring them as my favorite type second to Hindis, and above Cambodis. Ayu is indeed a Malaysian delicacy. It's strange that as I am enjoying it's aroma, I am simultaneously influenced by it's color, making me associate the two as one.
As salaamu alaykum @Alkhadra & @Ensar
IMO you both hit the nail on the head; I respect both views but the explanations were short sighted without further consideration.
It is true that words have a finite, precise definition; as they lay inactive and dormant in a dictionary or in a vacuum. Consider, when they come off of the tongue or are written they take flight and become a living thing, often taking on other formal, informal, literal and contextual meanings. The most important thing is that we as the user of words, the receiver and the transmitter, seek to understand and be understood.
Yes I've worn Oud Shuayb, beautiful oil, I especially like the fecaliscious yumminess tempered by ambergrisified fossil, it's a highly resinous oil yet ethereal oil with great horizontal and vertical complexity that doesn't suffer collapse~that make absolutely no objective sense. Some of the words I used aren't really words at all but rather have come into the lexicon of discourse in this thing of ours. Despite the informal, misuse and bastardization of the words used, the great majority here know exactly what I'm talking about. Likewise, if I say I'm going to burn some oud today vs I'm going to wear some oud today, we understand that in the first instance I'm going to burn agarwood and in the second instance wear oud oil. For those that want to make themselves finite and limit themselves only to the objective, you go right ahead. But stop ridiculing and seeking to find fault with those who can think, relate and communicate outside of the box.
Most everything about oud from distillation to appreciation is subjective. If you think not just reduce it to the objective and strictly technical by building some type of scanner that selects the different grades of wood, then a computerized distillation unit distills each grade under one set of permutations for each grade, the resultant oils to labelled indicating and dictating what notes you will get and what experience you will have; computerized, note on-note off, binary oils. Even if such a system existed it would still be programmed with the users subjective parameters for selecting wood grade and what parameters to use, going right back to being subjective.
There was a beautiful story relayed by the wonderful young master distiller, Zak from Agarwood Assam, whose Hastakshar Kalakassi I've given praise public and private,
@Taha as salaamu alykum habibi, we welcome your return,
You came openly and willingly, you defined ideas and words and put them into our lexicon. You stated long ago in post #13 how you used "oleoresin" in context with,
IMO you both hit the nail on the head; I respect both views but the explanations were short sighted without further consideration.
It is true that words have a finite, precise definition; as they lay inactive and dormant in a dictionary or in a vacuum. Consider, when they come off of the tongue or are written they take flight and become a living thing, often taking on other formal, informal, literal and contextual meanings. The most important thing is that we as the user of words, the receiver and the transmitter, seek to understand and be understood.
Yes I've worn Oud Shuayb, beautiful oil, I especially like the fecaliscious yumminess tempered by ambergrisified fossil, it's a highly resinous oil yet ethereal oil with great horizontal and vertical complexity that doesn't suffer collapse~that make absolutely no objective sense. Some of the words I used aren't really words at all but rather have come into the lexicon of discourse in this thing of ours. Despite the informal, misuse and bastardization of the words used, the great majority here know exactly what I'm talking about. Likewise, if I say I'm going to burn some oud today vs I'm going to wear some oud today, we understand that in the first instance I'm going to burn agarwood and in the second instance wear oud oil. For those that want to make themselves finite and limit themselves only to the objective, you go right ahead. But stop ridiculing and seeking to find fault with those who can think, relate and communicate outside of the box.
Most everything about oud from distillation to appreciation is subjective. If you think not just reduce it to the objective and strictly technical by building some type of scanner that selects the different grades of wood, then a computerized distillation unit distills each grade under one set of permutations for each grade, the resultant oils to labelled indicating and dictating what notes you will get and what experience you will have; computerized, note on-note off, binary oils. Even if such a system existed it would still be programmed with the users subjective parameters for selecting wood grade and what parameters to use, going right back to being subjective.
There was a beautiful story relayed by the wonderful young master distiller, Zak from Agarwood Assam, whose Hastakshar Kalakassi I've given praise public and private,
"Recently, me, my uncle and Abba we all three in bright morning were sorting the chips from the lot. To be honest I was just observing their practice. And they would pick pieces one after another so respectfully and so nimble in action with precision of grading at same time. This was so rapid with them. I felt like a ritual happening. Abba is 74 & my uncle 62. My father gave sorted chips to uncle and said see if these are up the quality we were sorting. Uncle said it will be a disgrace to verify your sorting. My pardon I will not. To that my father replied I had cataract operated last year. Are you sure still? And a big laugh in the room. That's how it is. It's not about my father experience it was about RESPECT we share. Btw the chips were spot on sorted."
There were a few things I took away from the story, among them are that each man may indeed sort his chips differently. The most poignant, prolific and befitting thing I took away from it was just as Zak said; That each individual, knowing they may differ, had RESPECT for the way the other sorted his chips and the knowing that it is disgraceful to attempt to verify the other. May Allah subhana wa ta'ala bless them all with vigor, health and prosperity.
@Taha as salaamu alykum habibi, we welcome your return,
You came openly and willingly, you defined ideas and words and put them into our lexicon. You stated long ago in post #13 how you used "oleoresin" in context with,
"For LOT/MOTA oud oils, all these things are irrelevant. Because the aim is to excise and isolate the purest expression of the oleoresin's scent, untainted by auxiliary notes (and techniques/parameters)".
Some actually read it and "got it". With others it's obvious that they cared not to read it or if read it, misunderstood it. Some assumed to know what you were talking about and made erroneous assumptions and negative criticism. It's all distraction away from the oils. And why not seek to distract away from discussion of the oils when the distractors oils aren't discussed as much as and with the same reverence and honor as yours and a few other vendors. Likewise they'll say the stories and only the stories are responsible for sales, when their oils don't sell or maintain the same value as well. All distraction from the oils and condescending to boot. Of course they'll say you don't distill your own oils, but let's assume you didn't; they fail to realize that he who hand selected the ingredients, gave the recipe and parameter under which the dish is cooked is in reality more influential on the dish than who stirred the pot. There's no failure, many got it and learned from it. Maybe a little discretion, not necessarily on what you share but rather who you share it with, because just as @Ensar pointed out many times you end up with clones, mini me's, that try to use your own information that they learn from to discredit you.
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Understandable what you have meant by "oleoresin", thank you for additional clarification @Taha.
A question regarding Gen3/4 for the sake of knowledge. Are these Gens are the result of specific distillation parameter sets that meticulously selected to produce the desired specific Gen oil in all circumstances and everytime applied (prospective classification), or you classified them subjectivity after assessing the end result of the distilled oil based on its behaviour and scent notes progression/development among others of course after applying predictive set of paramaters during cooking that could be changed and manipulated with each distillation based on experience to get the desired result but not consistently (retrospective classifcation)?
A question regarding Gen3/4 for the sake of knowledge. Are these Gens are the result of specific distillation parameter sets that meticulously selected to produce the desired specific Gen oil in all circumstances and everytime applied (prospective classification), or you classified them subjectivity after assessing the end result of the distilled oil based on its behaviour and scent notes progression/development among others of course after applying predictive set of paramaters during cooking that could be changed and manipulated with each distillation based on experience to get the desired result but not consistently (retrospective classifcation)?
I don't know where I read it recently, maybe a screenshot someone sent me, someone talking of "Chinese and Japanese masters". The hysterical thing about it is if you know any of those folks you know exactly what their reaction would be to some of the things that are said in this community. I do not exaggerate when I say that the entire population of a certain forum would be literally kicked out the door and not given a second look; not to speak of any molecules of oil. The "Chinese & Japanese masters" have, first and foremost, a moral code. A system of decorum and respect that they adhere to like it's their religion.
As a quick DIY experiment, I mentioned certain names to Kruger, and asked him what he thought their reactions would be if they were to read Ouddict. We were in stitches at the thought of it.
As a quick DIY experiment, I mentioned certain names to Kruger, and asked him what he thought their reactions would be if they were to read Ouddict. We were in stitches at the thought of it.
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