Let's talk Oud: a detailed discourse on the various aspects of this substance we love

[Taha]

You mentioned that if it was cleaned more, it could go up to tiger grade or something to that effect.

Well as people say, you gotta get your hands dirty to really get to the root of the issue! But probably not here.

Ah yes, I remember clearly now. Yep, per the grading system I follow, I would call that A grade. A more thorough cleaning could have bumped it up to AA, possibly even AAA.

The "incense grade" issue.
As far as I recall, I started using this term in 2011 and don't remember it being used before. Back then, it simply meant "using wood that would otherwise be sold as incense for burning, to extract oil", i.e. finished chips. I didn't realize how aggressively the term could be abused, and how much wiggle room could be made to accommodate far lower grades of agarwood.
Now there are two other grade of wood which can match (and sometimes even beat) incense grade wood extractions, and they are:
1) the last 2 stages of cleaning/carving Super & higher grades of wood. I have to emphasize that I am not talking about all carving scrap material. Only about 10% of the shavings qualify as high quality, of incense-grade caliber (I call these oils "cheat grade").
2) the uppermost end of oil-grade wood.

So what are the cans of worms I was referring to?
In the case of shavings, its next to impossible to know for sure that the shavings were from the last 2 stages of carving. Either the tree has to be your own (in which case you can instruct the pakerja how to collect the shavings in different piles according to grade), or you have to have reliable suppliers who are willing to follow your instructions. And what actually happens...? ALL the shavings are collected and combined together.
In the case of oil-grade wood, its subjective. Who defines what's high enough quality? An unscrupulous seller could stretch the definition of "high quality oil grade" wood to include what I for instance may consider bunk wood. To me, high quality oil grade wood can be defined as something that isn't terribly impressive visually, however it can be valued by the Chinese, Japanese, and Taiwanese incense masters.

Here's an example of what proper sorting according to grade looks like (visually, its almost impossible to discern between the 4 grades of shavings here):


And here's an example of what high quality oil grade wood *can* look like (and just because a batch of oil grade wood looks the same as this, it does not automatically qualify it as high grade):


I hope you can see what the issue is. "Incense grade" or "high grade" can be used as a catch-all deliberately to smudge the lines separating high grade vs low grade oud oils. Based on pictures and videos alone, customers would have no clue if the shavings were from the last 2 stages of carving, or if the oil grade wood was indeed high/incense grade.

 

[MEKWT]

SO the tribe wouldnt accept me due to me being a "Snowflake"? I have lived in the Middle East for over a decade and all I can say is everyone has a price for admissiom regardless who you are and where you come from or what you look like. I could always dye my hair and use henna to dye my skin lmao. Having said that I am interested in going on a hunting expedition in Cambodia, Burma, Laos and Vietnam.

Ha! @RobertOne, MEKWT, bhanny, you wish! I'm gonna assume you'd all qualify as "European" as well, and so I'd round you all up and ship you off to the jungle.
You at the distillery? Yeah, right. Keep dreaming. Work those calluses up so you can wield your axe like a champ in the jungle!

@bhanny, ouff yeah thank God, actually I just got off the phone with Jamal after a 24 hour period of silence which was really freaking me out after that earlier encounter. So they're all safe and alive, and best of all the hunting already started earlier today (and yep, once again they have phone reception, albeit not too great).

@m.arif, lol yes, I suppose so. I wish I could have shared more on agarwood here (photos, videos etc), but hey, I got to learn some new stuff about the natives of Borneo. Oh, and I found out that tribe is called Berawan, not Prabawan. I guess since the Malay pronounciation of the first 'e' is shortened, and it was followed by a rolling 'r', I heard the name wrong.
Incidentally, after Googling Berawan it turns out that they are indeed a very tiny tribe and very little is known about them, even by their neighbors. They're generally considered very hostile, aggressive and warrior-like, and they actually drove out their Tring-tribe neighbors from the region. Now its just Berawans and Penans there. And the Penan wizards have pretty long whiskers, so I guess they're there to stay.
Any way, it was all just too much for me. I don't like to disrespect any culture even if I disagree with it and especially if I'm a guest in their land, but.. I just had to leave. m.arif, you probably know what I'm talking about.

In another post I might post some more insights on the pricing factor, as well as the state of agarwood affairs in Cambodia right now (straight from the horse's mouth).
Right now, I'm just so relieved the team is okay and the hunting has started. I can sleep tonight.
I should be back in KL tomorrow/Sunday. And maybe (if the team can confirm there are no Berawans in the region), I can try to find an alternate route to the target jungle and head back there to join the team. I still really want to capture a bunch of videos so you can all see what its like in there. And most importantly: capture the process of tree felling, stripping, chopping up and carving.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[5MeO]

Per the grades of wood - many of Adam/Feel Oud's videos are very insightful on this topic.

Go to his Oud Stories --> Oils of the Past and read about the "Sabah Hijau" oil. The wood he used does not look impressive at all, not resinated, and he talks about how it is nevertheless rich in oil, and shows how it bubbles up on the burner.. The Sabah Hijau oil itself is quite magnificent - has that royal quality to it that the luxury Malaysian's have..

---

In terms of this lack of wood, do I understand correctly that there are indeed remote jungles where one may find grandmother trees of amazing quality, but that these jungles are virtually inaccessible? Or have even the most remote jungles been accessed? I was also under the impression that Borneo Island and other parts of Indonesia were still holding a good number of trees, while Cambodia and Vietnam and other mainland areas were far scarcer..

 

[Taha]

SO the tribe wouldnt accept me due to me being a "Snowflake"? I have lived in the Middle East for over a decade and all I can say is everyone has a price for admissiom regardless who you are and where you come from or what you look like. I could always dye my hair and use henna to dye my skin lmao. Having said that I am interested in going on a hunting expedition in Cambodia, Burma, Laos and Vietnam.

Oh no, quite the contrary. No tanning or skin dying. The more foreign you can look, the better!
By the way, in the other thread you asked me about King wood - I don't have any of the large pieces of this grade with me any more (those always sell the fastest) however if you're interested in Baby King, I do have some. Let me know if you're interested in that (I think previously you got the Double Super wood).

Per the grades of wood - many of Adam/Feel Oud's videos are very insightful on this topic.

Go to his Oud Stories --> Oils of the Past and read about the "Sabah Hijau" oil. The wood he used does not look impressive at all, not resinated, and he talks about how it is nevertheless rich in oil, and shows how it bubbles up on the burner.. The Sabah Hijau oil itself is quite magnificent - has that royal quality to it that the luxury Malaysian's have..

---

In terms of this lack of wood, do I understand correctly that there are indeed remote jungles where one may find grandmother trees of amazing quality, but that these jungles are virtually inaccessible? Or have even the most remote jungles been accessed? I was also under the impression that Borneo Island and other parts of Indonesia were still holding a good number of trees, while Cambodia and Vietnam and other mainland areas were far scarcer..

Yep, some woods look very dull and uninspiring. In fact there's an entire category of wood (i.e. south Burmese, south Thai, north Malay.. called 'Burma wood' among hunters) that looks orangish even if its fully King grade. I'll see if I can find photos of some Kelantan King grade 'Burma wood' we had earlier this year. Our Arab clientele found it very unappetizing because it wasn't glistening and glittery with black resin, but on the other hand the Chinese folks loved it.

You know.. it was precisely based on that assumption you mentioned, that we've been going on treks to *extremely* remote areas these past 9ish months. But so far, every place we've been to, it looks like smugglers had already taken out all the mother trees. Some of these areas I really didn't expect to have been hit already considering how remote they are.

I'll demonstrate how Cambodians hunt in a future post, and after you understand how Cambodians (and Vietnamese, the two "best" agarwood smugglers) operate, I think you'll see why mother trees are missing even in extremely remote areas that you'd think no human has been to before.

 

[Taha]

At long last, I finally received news that my team reached the 'backdoor' of our target jungle. We still haven't gotten a suitable Penan porter yet, but I was informed that the tribe said after Christmas we can be assigned a guy. So at the moment, Amab and Sath have started surveying the secondary jungle and as soon as they can, they'll proceed (with a local porter or two) into the primary jungle.

So, with that said and done and set aside, I'd like to proceed to an important chapter in the Oud Discourse, something I'm sure we all wonder about but don't discuss in-depth (and for good reason, because we can only follow hearsay or personal opinion), and that is: the extent/severity of extinction issue.

I'll start by saying that I'm probably the biggest idiot because of where I positioned myself in the oud industry. Had I been in the position I am in right now about 5 years ago, I'd probably have a big smile on my face and not worrying about the growing number of white hairs on my head.
But this position I am in, I think, gives me a unique advantage whereby I am able to share more about the behind-the-scenes than anyone else. At least on the internet. At least in the English language.
What I state may not resonate with folks from this side or that. But my intention isn't to challenge anyone's opinions, but rather to share my own observations and personal experiences. You are then welcome to decide how much salt you want to take with what I narrate.

 

[Muhammad Taftazani]

Assalaamu'alaikum

greetings fellow distillers and oudlover.

 

[Taha]

Assalaamu'alaikum

greetings fellow dstillers and oudlover.

Wa alaykum assalam abang! Very nice to see you here!
I hope everyone will benefit from the presence of yet another gentleman who gets his hands fragrant with the production of oud.
Those who don't know, I've worked with, discussed, debated, disagreed, and agreed with Muhammad for a long time. I've learned many things from him, and perhaps he's also found some things that I've shared with him at the very least fascinating.
I made Muhammad incredibly sick the first time I visited Indonesia. We travelled around together, shared hotel rooms, and the AC temperature I'd set in the rooms practically gave him pneumonia. I earned my first (of many) nicknames in SE Asia by his grace, "polar bear".

 

[m.arif]

Welcome Muhammad I hope you don't mind getting bombarded with questions. Maybe you can share abit on what your style generally is like?

I'm sure the r'ship between the both of you helped in improving the gaharu scene. Awesome. Can't wait to smell your oils @Muhammad! Please be patient with me.

@Taha sometimes I feel difficult to smell your oils when at your home. The low temp makes my nose get blocked. Aha. The occasional fresh air outside does help me enjoy the oils more. Polar bear is quite accurate. Haha. Durian loving polar bear

Extinction issue. If I tell people that gaharu dah hilang, kayu dah habis..many people will say "saya tak paham". They still see loads of wood being sold here and there. What you're doing here will help a great deal in educating consumers and vendors alike in regards to the situation of gaharu. Some might take your anecdotes and the sharings here for granted..well, it is free and anyone can view it..only when things are really dire do people realize the urgency and importance of the matters discussed..as is usually the case when things go extinct.

Sometimes I check the forum a few times a day to see if any new updates are up regarding the hunts. Keep it up ! Although sometimes it's hard to find motivation when some people dont appreciate what you share..So keep posting! The excited readers are always around.

 

[bhanny]

Welcome Muhammad I hope you don't mind getting bombarded with questions. Maybe you can share abit on what your style generally is like?

Yes, welcome Muhammad! Its great to have expertise here. Ensar, Taha, Adam and now you, awesome. I would also be interested in your style, your oils, etc.

Extinction issue. If I tell people that gaharu dah hilang, kayu dah habis..many people will say " saya tak paham". They still see loads of wood being sold here and there. What you're doing here will help a great deal in educating consumers and vendors alike in regards to the situation of gaharu. Some might take your anecdotes and the sharings here for granted..well, it is free and anyone can view it..only when things are really dire do people realize the urgency and importance of the matters discussed..as is usually the case when things go extinct.

I take this very very seriously! I have tried to load up on both new and old oils by these guys. I don't regret it one bit, and when the End of Oud truly hits, I hope my children and I will have enough to last all our lifetimes!

 

[Taha]

@m.arif, uh oh! I'll need to make sure next time you swing by, I can make it nice and steamy.
By the way, I find that when the temperature is cooler, an ouds' scent is more accurate, 'focused'. Back in Canada, when I would step outside in winter I would get hit with a cloud of incensey oudiness, from whatever oud I was wearing that day. Hotter weather, I find, dulls and rounds out the aroma.

@bhanny, I'm very curious too. Muhammad and I had a long chat in Sabah last year, and soon after that he produced some oils with incredibly different aromatic styles. I'm wondering if he and his friend the wizard (Martsiano) devised some unique adaptations of the theories we had discussed.

 

[Taha]

Part I: What Defines Extinction

Although technically extinction would mean there are no more specimens of a species/genus in existence, the way I use the term is a bit different, I use the term as it pertains to an industry.
If you take a look at Sri Lanka as an example, this is a country where up until very recently (the 2000's) the Walla Patta tree was only seen by villagers as a tree whose bark was very useful for using as a rope, and to the government it was just a tree that played an important role in the water cycle (due to its large and far-reaching roots).
I am willing to bet that there are more mother trees still standing in the tiny island of Sri Lanka than even all the Indonesian islands combined. Having said that, Sri Lanka is a very tiny island and if you look at the regions where agarwood grows, you're looking at an even tinier area.
About 5 years ago, people would go for a day-long 'picnic' on a Saturday and return back the same day with King Super grade agarwood. And then back to their regular jobs on Monday.
Now they have to hunt for about a week. Within a year or two, I expect it to become a matter of months, and very soon thereafter its likely going to be like any other oud-producing country because of how small the country and specifically how small the jungles are. The extinction curve will most likely be far steeper and more abrupt, again, due to the small size of jungles here.

I deliberately chose to talk about Sri Lanka first because of its relative abundance of agarwood, compared to other oud producing countries. But already the hunting durations have become the same as (the much larger) Indonesia, and I have seen from the raw stumps and logs hunters are bringing out now that they've started harvesting daughter trees more and more.

Food for thought: if there is a lone 300 year old tree standing in a Khanh Hoa jungle in Vietnam today (and hey, just for fun lets make it a kinam tree), it is not salvation from extinction. Likewise, the fact that (even today) sometimes hunters find dead kinam trees buried underground, it doesn't qualify as redemption.
In Indo-China, the market for agarwood as a trade commodity is still very much alive. But the overwhelming majority of what changes hands is wood that was harvested a long time ago, together with wood that was harvested in other regions (e.g. Indonesia) that gets sold as Indo-Chinese.
Why would they resort to that, if agarwood wasn't extinct?

But Taha, you yourself have seen (and skipped) plenty of trees in the jungle, so how does that tie in and corroborate what you're saying?
I am no professor of agarwood, and you can decide to agree or disagree with my view, but here's how I (and others who are near the top or at the top of the supply chain) see things.
Agarwood (as a trade commodity) is like any other trade commodity. And what I see is a rapidly dwindling population of trees whose rate of eradication far exceeds the rate of proliferation. Veteran hunters are retiring and turning to things like farming rice or tilapia, and are being replaced with a younger and less experienced generation of hunters who are far more ruthless in chopping down every single agarwood tree they see standing (which ensures a non-existent heir generation of agarwood).
Yes, I've seen plenty of standing trees, but that doesn't change my views about the extinction problem. To me, extinction is a process and not the moment in time when the very last wild tree is cut down. To me, the process of extinction has most certainly kicked in when putting in 200% time, money and effort does not yield even a break-even situation for a business.
It all comes down to mother trees.
When mother trees have almost entirely been wiped out (and the young and ruthless new generation of gaharu hunters will take care of wiping out the younger trees), to the extent that 18 hunting expeditions in 2 years yielded only 1 successful harvest (and even for that one, the expenses canceled out the profit), then I can confidently say that the process of extinction has kicked in in earnest.

Part II: Extinction as Defined by The Market

Another simpler (but very accurate) way of defining extinction is: when the China market demand cannot be satisfied.
Up until recently, all hunting in the modern era (post 1970's) was done predominantly for fulfilling the China market demand. Many people have only come to learn of China as an agarwood consumer market just recently, but if you ask hunters here, they will all tell you they've always been the target customer (India and Bangladesh were and are the only exceptions).
Supplying wood to the Arab market was always seen the same as standard distillation (from scrap wood): an added bonus. Chinese prices always justified and correctly reflected hunting costs, and they still do. What the China market didn't want was offloaded in the Arab market.
Today, the dominance of Sina'i (engineered fake) agarwood and murakkab (again, 'engineered') oud oils in the Arab market is directly tied to the fact that the China market demand cannot be met. Yes, Arab grade chips can still be harvested, but the selling prices do not even cover cost of hunting (let alone providing profit). The combination of these two factors = a nightmare for a wholesaler like me.

I think there's *possibly* a silver lining in all this though.
If the China market throws in the towel, and the Arab market prices continue to be too low to warrant hunting expeditions, then who knows... gaharu hunting might soon become a defunct job title. If hunters stop chopping down trees indiscriminately, then the young trees currently still standing may one day become mother and grandmother trees in the future.
Well, if that does happen, it would benefit our grandkids. As for us, we'd have to be the ones making the sacrifice. But having said all this, what I witness isn't supporting this utopian prediction. The younger overzealous hunters are still chopping down trees indiscriminately, left, right, and center.

To be continued...

Part III: The Way of the Nak Braman & Tho San
Part IV: How All this Relates to Oud Oils

 

[bhanny]

This is really awesome Taha. Thanks for explaining what your experience has led you to believe/conclude. Look forward to Parts III/IV.

 

[Taha]

You're welcome. I've only just scratched the surface so far, and will tie in what I stated with personal experiences in upcoming posts.

But to keep things interesting, let me now present a rebuttal to my very own statements above (and I will address the rebuttal later), and that is: wild Indian wood. As far as I know, wild Indian wood has been extinct the longest. And yet, I present to you 100% wild Indian wood.. all of these harvested between 2014-2016 (i.e. very recent):


To some, all agarwood looks the same. But those who know their Indian agarwood know what it looks like, and I'm sure there are a lot of drool-dampened keyboards right now after those folks see these photos.
Alas, even though (most of) these pieces don't qualify as Chinese grade, the wholesale price is the same as Chinese bead and pendant grade agarwood, i.e. insanely high. Its for this reason I cannot offer wild Indian wood like this for sale; the wholesale price is far far higher than even the highest retail price this would go for in the market. All this good stuff goes straight to the crème de la crème of the Arabian Gulf.
Having said that... there's no reason not to use the shavings from the last and second-to-last stages of carving for making oil, hehe.

I was very hurt by certain things that certain people said about some of the facts I've been sharing about the agarwood situation in India (and in general), on my blog. Trying to figure out what all the negativity was about, one gentleman I approached to get clarification said to me that its hard to take what I say seriously because I'm an oud seller. To this I responded that ALL info the consumer gets about agarwood is from.. surprise surprise.. people who are in the industry. You won't find guys risking their money (and lives) just to keep their fingers on the pulse of the agarwood market... just to run an 'Agarwood Information' charity.
This is the reason why I'm only sharing these photos for the first time (and only registered members here can see the attachments). Likewise, because I find baseless skepticism to be very insulting and hurtful, I deliberately didn't share videos of the entire batch of Ceylon No.1 (massive tub-full of sinking wood) publicly. I'd rather not even accommodate and indulge the curiosity of skeptics. Some may say I should share everything publicly, from a business point of view. But the way I see it, I'm clearing out the weeds.
(m.arif has already seen the Ceylon video I speak of, and if anyone else is interested I'd be happy to share it privately)

I also have some unreleased Nagaland oils - I'll try to find the tree and wood photos, I know they're lying around somewhere.

As a side note, Ensar once gave me a little pep talk and tried to talk some sense into me, seeing how I've become too extreme and ventured into what (and I fully admit) makes no business sense and is, flat out, imbecilic. So you can imagine how demeaning it is, when I've crossed all boundaries for the sake of oud, then some folks from the comfort of their couches pass judgments.

Any who!
Wow, I really went off on a tangent there, sorry about that. I promise I will tie in the India bit with the topic of extinction. For now, just enjoy these photos the same way you would a thriller novel.

 

[bhanny]

Ooooh. Those look nice. And that is the problem with the internet my friend, so many people can be self-proclaimed experts and keyboard bullies behind the relative anonymity of the internet or at least the safety of geographic boundaries.

 

[Oud Learner]

@m.arif, uh oh! I'll need to make sure next time you swing by, I can make it nice and steamy.
By the way, I find that when the temperature is cooler, an ouds' scent is more accurate, 'focused'. Back in Canada, when I would step outside in winter I would get hit with a cloud of incensey oudiness, from whatever oud I was wearing that day. Hotter weather, I find, dulls and rounds out the aroma.

@bhanny, I'm very curious too. Muhammad and I had a long chat in Sabah last year, and soon after that he produced some oils with incredibly different aromatic styles. I'm wondering if he and his friend the wizard (Martsiano) devised some unique adaptations of the theories we had discussed.

KZ had published an article on his blog that mentioned how humidity would affect the scents from an incense sticks. He recommended to turn on the air con for an hour before burning the incense so as to have a more accurate scent profile. I would imagine the same principle is also applicable to Oud oil or heating of Oud wood as well.

 

[Taha]

Ah, neat. I didn't know about this in general terms, but have certainly observed it with oud (both oil and wood).
Interestingly, with sandalwood oil, I'm able to appreciate the aroma almost equally whether its hot or cold.

 

[kesiro]

KZ had published an article on his blog that mentioned how humidity would affect the scents from an incense sticks. He recommended to turn on the air con for an hour before burning the incense so as to have a more accurate scent profile. I would imagine the same principle is also applicable to Oud oil or heating of Oud wood as well.

No doubt. The volatility of the different aromatic compounds is different in different temperatures. Also, I am sure that even the body chemistry changes with warm, cold, or humid conditions will play a role in the evolution of a scent. So far, in my experience, oud has the greatest variability in different conditions, I suppose because of its natural inherent complexity. To me, this is an extremely appealing characteristic. I get to enjoy different aspects in different seasons/conditions.

 

[Oud Learner]

How does condenser affect the scent profile?

I am quite intrigued by the impact of the condenser used in the distillation on the distilled oil scent profile. Ensar has recommended the change of condenser to improve the longevity factor of Taha's Ceylon oils at a compromise of the airy notes. We saw Adam latest Terminator X stainless steel condenser that he used to cook the Thai oil. In my conversation with Taha, he had mentioned a change of the condenser for the TX2 distillation to give it less of an airy top notes and more of the dry woody ambient aroma.

I always thought a condenser is nothing more than just a collection vessel for the oil but apparently I am wrong! I am very interested in why and how does it affect the oil aroma. Of course I understand there may be some proprietary secret here that the distillers are not willing to disclose. I am not asking for the exact detail but rather in general the consideration when choosing the right type of condenser in terms of shape, material type and other factors.

 

[bhanny]

I'm interested too Oud_Learner. It is so much more complex than I ever imagined.

 

[kesiro]

I think the current generation of oud producers are like wine makers. Every step in the production process effects the final product. The quality of the wood, (or fruit) is extremely important but every other variable has profound effects. Living here in Northern California, close to Napa, I have had a lot of exposure to winemaking, and it is extremely complex. Even the origin of and age of the oak the barrels are made out of has profound effects. Not to mention whether it is toasted and to what level. So I imagine the distillation equipment and materials is a similar thing. Understanding the effects of each part of the chain is how these guys work the magic they do. I am very curious about these processes as well and hope to learn more.