Let's talk Oud: a detailed discourse on the various aspects of this substance we love

So what 'stage' (refer to earlier post above) y'all reckon this wood to be? And what grade (after final cleaning)?
Adam, Ensar, Muhammad... you're not allowed to guess. :p
View attachment 409
@m.arif, whoops sorry I somehow missed your post above. Ah yes, the stages are correctly split up now.
And as for the sandalwood, well, you already got to smell it now. Hope you're feeling better now. Maybe Lavanya helped in clearing your sinuses..?
Hmm...stage 2.5?
Based on the woods i got from you as reference, i would say super and some at double super (1st piece from the left)? At first glance, some of the pieces seems to be resinous only on the surface and doesn't permeate throughout the wood. Need to see the other side and the cross sectional of the wood to be sure. :p
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
Good guess!
Yep, those are between stages 2 and 3. Its amazing how dull whitish looking pieces are brought to shiny black life just by scratching away at them, and the Khmer are of course the best carvers (then Indonesians). Just this time the hunter was in a hurry (he was back in the mountain, as I was assessing the wood) so he didn't finish the pieces, and so I got a pretty sweet deal. :)
Hope I get at least 300ml from the 19kg I picked up!

As for the grade (i.e. Agar Aura grading, which I think by now you know pretty well), the pieces in the photo will end up as A to AA (so no super or double super). As for Super and Double Super (per my grading system), its next to impossible to find in Cambodia these days. Even in the huge haul for the King Koh Kong project, there had been just a handful of Super sinking grade pieces.

Here's a pic of the finished pieces (well, you'll notice some in the background are still stage 3):
almost_finished.jpg

Random: here's a sign board i saw that brought a smile to my face: ;)
funny.jpg
 

m.arif

Active Member
@Taha Lavanya..what can I say. I'm glad you went gen3 this time (and perhaps never turn back).

Pristine, smooth, refined. the likes of sutera and ceylon 1. sutera being the first artisanal oud that blew me away, oils with the same pristine quality tend to hit a soft spot.

From the first whiff, immediately I was reminded of the smooth hindi nectar, Lalitya. Lavanya is a very sweet oud (Agar aura clean hindis kind of sweet), and I think originating from Nagaland is a factor at play here. The dry down is the wow factor for me though. It became more perfumey, and felt more "beautiful" , like an already beautiful young lady all dressed up for a night dinner event. It shines brighter towards the end IMO.

I may have said Mahabali seems to be one of my favourite oils before..but opinions change I guess. For it's rustic, robust theme, yep maybe still the top. Hindis in general, being a southeast asian, clean, refined, crystalline and pristine are my preferences in oils.

Alhamdulillaah my cough eased up a lot after the visit. I don't know if it was the psychotropic properties of oud, or ouds have an anti viral mechanism :rolleyes:

Too bad the yield for TX no.2 was bad. Very strong sandalwood. more robust, and more bitter, compared to TX no.1...otherwise the guys here can get some.

Then came kalyani..mahabali revisited... ***** attar in the making.. :D

Looks like the cambodian trip was fruitful. Glad to hear that! awesome looking wood too! All of that is going into the pots ? o_O
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
Ah...my initial thought was AAA but I thought the scrapping of the bunk wood would yield super grade.

Wow...just AA? Hehe I was so far off from my assessment. :p
'JUST AA'?! :eek:
Trust me, AA is insanely awesome for making oils. As far as I know (and honestly Ensar is the only exception I can think of, and this is not to just laud him mindlessly and demean any other vendors), 100% of wild Cambodian oils nowadays are now made from 'sliced wood'. Hunters go and hack trees, then after a couple years return back to them to collect the oily patches that come about due to the hacking. So in a sense, they're no different from plantation trees that were drilled and left for a couple years for some oleoresin to develop.
You gotta believe me when I tell you, its insane to cook Cambodian wood like the one I got (worm-infected, deep heartwood). I even saved a bit so others will have a reference. The only thing more insane was the awesome deal I got for the wood, hehe.

Haven't started cooking yet, I'm still unsure if I should do that first, or Ha Tinh Vietnamese old stock, or a wild Thai, or Sulawesi. For now, its just sitting in a ground up state. :)
(Taha's little helpers got a few bucks after they were done, and the big one also got a cold yogurt beverage... you shoulda seen how his eyes popped with excitement, and how he was showing it off to his little brother!)

@Taha Lavanya..what can I say. I'm glad you went gen3 this time (and perhaps never turn back).

Pristine, smooth, refined. the likes of sutera and ceylon 1. sutera being the first artisanal oud that blew me away, oils with the same pristine quality tend to hit a soft spot.

From the first whiff, immediately I was reminded of the smooth hindi nectar, Lalitya. Lavanya is a very sweet oud (Agar aura clean hindis kind of sweet), and I think originating from Nagaland is a factor at play here. The dry down is the wow factor for me though. It became more perfumey, and felt more "beautiful" , like an already beautiful young lady all dressed up for a night dinner event. It shines brighter towards the end IMO.

I may have said Mahabali seems to be one of my favourite oils before..but opinions change I guess. For it's rustic, robust theme, yep maybe still the top. Hindis in general, being a southeast asian, clean, refined, crystalline and pristine are my preferences in oils.

Alhamdulillaah my cough eased up a lot after the visit. I don't know if it was the psychotropic properties of oud, or ouds have an anti viral mechanism :rolleyes:

Too bad the yield for TX no.2 was bad. Very strong sandalwood. more robust, and more bitter, compared to TX no.1...otherwise the guys here can get some.

Then came kalyani..mahabali revisited... ***** attar in the making.. :D

Looks like the cambodian trip was fruitful. Glad to hear that! awesome looking wood too! All of that is going into the pots ? o_O
Yeah, its a pity about the sandalwood yield. Ah well... no one forced me to sign up for this whole distillation gig. So, gotta suck it up and accept the blow.

Oh shoot haha, I didn't want you to post anything about Lavanya, as I still don't know if I'll ever release it (Kalyani, yes I do intend to). But now that the cat's out of the bag, I suppose maybe I'll follow what Adam did and do a Gaharu members-only release.
I could be wrong, but I think most folks haven't smelled real (i.e. natively) Nagaland oud before. Its a hotspot for agarwood plantations, and based on most oils I've smelled it seems the saplings were mostly just brought from Assam (so the oils smell like Assamese, garbed in a few Nagaland topographic/climatic elements, but I could be wrong). True wild Nagaland oud is instantly noticeably different from Assamese. Again I saved a little bit of the dust so folks can smell it (I showed it to Ensar too when he visited, but don't recall if we got to heat it, as I was in a rush to head over to Borneo).
 
Last edited:

Taha

Well-Known Member
Fresh from the jungle, about 2 miles from the Brunei border...
Finally some news from the hunters after 20 days of silence.

IMG_9497.JPG IMG_9498.JPG IMG_9499.JPG IMG_9500.JPG

Was it worth it? I still don't know. No China grade stuff yet (well, plenty of baby King so in a sense lowest China market grade, but they only buy this grade in order to be allowed to acquire full king chunks).
There's still plenty of cleaning and carving yet to be done. I hope there's a bunch of huge chunks hiding inside that will be revealed soon!

For all the support Gaharu members have shown, I'm thinking of sharing the haul with you guys before contacting our wholesale clients.

..and let's see how much wood we got for making oils. :)
 

Oudamberlove

Well-Known Member
Fresh from the jungle, about 2 miles from the Brunei border...
Finally some news from the hunters after 20 days of silence.

View attachment 413 View attachment 414 View attachment 415 View attachment 416

Was it worth it? I still don't know. No China grade stuff yet (well, plenty of baby King so in a sense lowest China market grade, but they only buy this grade in order to be allowed to acquire full king chunks).
There's still plenty of cleaning and carving yet to be done. I hope there's a bunch of huge chunks hiding inside that will be revealed soon!

For all the support Gaharu members have shown, I'm thinking of sharing the haul with you guys before contacting our wholesale clients.

..and let's see how much wood we got for making oils. :)
I hope it's a good haul for you, after too many unsuccessful hunts (and all the risks associated with hunting in the jungle) you deserve a break;)
Sometimes I wish I had an unfinished chunk so I could carve away and discover the shape of the finished chip hiding inside. Maybe you can offer some.
I know that those who carve day-in and day-out are more skilled, but it would be novel to have a crack at carving anyhow:)
 

m.arif

Active Member
@Taha my bad! I really hope the guys here get to experience Lavanya though :)

Things are moving actively for Agar Aura it seems. all the best :)

Since the borneo wood is fresh, it will need further drying right?
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
Fresh from the jungle, about 2 miles from the Brunei border...
Finally some news from the hunters after 20 days of silence.

View attachment 413 View attachment 414 View attachment 415 View attachment 416

Was it worth it? I still don't know. No China grade stuff yet (well, plenty of baby King so in a sense lowest China market grade, but they only buy this grade in order to be allowed to acquire full king chunks).
There's still plenty of cleaning and carving yet to be done. I hope there's a bunch of huge chunks hiding inside that will be revealed soon!

For all the support Gaharu members have shown, I'm thinking of sharing the haul with you guys before contacting our wholesale clients.

..and let's see how much wood we got for making oils. :)
Glad to see at least SOME good news Taha!!! And be sure to let us know.
 

5MeO

Well-Known Member
Well heck yea! I'd love me some king grade Brunei wood! Unlike the Chinese I don't care about the size of the chunks of wood - I use them for heating/burning and so the shape or size of the wood chunks is mostly irrelevant to me - all I care about is the scent profile and resin density..

That AA grade wood a few posts up looks amazing for a distillation - wow, that will be an epic oil I bet!
 
Fresh from the jungle, about 2 miles from the Brunei border...
Finally some news from the hunters after 20 days of silence.

View attachment 413 View attachment 414 View attachment 415 View attachment 416

Was it worth it? I still don't know. No China grade stuff yet (well, plenty of baby King so in a sense lowest China market grade, but they only buy this grade in order to be allowed to acquire full king chunks).
There's still plenty of cleaning and carving yet to be done. I hope there's a bunch of huge chunks hiding inside that will be revealed soon!

For all the support Gaharu members have shown, I'm thinking of sharing the haul with you guys before contacting our wholesale clients.

..and let's see how much wood we got for making oils. :)
Yay!! So happy for ya!
 
Fresh from the jungle, about 2 miles from the Brunei border...
Finally some news from the hunters after 20 days of silence.

View attachment 413 View attachment 414 View attachment 415 View attachment 416

Was it worth it? I still don't know. No China grade stuff yet (well, plenty of baby King so in a sense lowest China market grade, but they only buy this grade in order to be allowed to acquire full king chunks).
There's still plenty of cleaning and carving yet to be done. I hope there's a bunch of huge chunks hiding inside that will be revealed soon!

For all the support Gaharu members have shown, I'm thinking of sharing the haul with you guys before contacting our wholesale clients.

..and let's see how much wood we got for making oils. :)
Reserve me a couple of grams Bhaia (It's Ish From Montreal , Bengali Bhaia , Ami Dim Kabo :))
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
At the risk of being called a "pink pony" (my son's term for a whiny/overly-sensitive person), or "prima donna" or whatever, I thought I'd share a photo of the total Sarawak haul:
wood.jpg
That's about $26,000 in expenses worth of agarwood.

A close-up of the disappointing amount of high grade shavings collected:
habuk.jpg
Obviously not enough for running a distillation.

The smell is, of course, awesome. 2 endemic Bruneian species (one very unusual form of Candan none of us have ever seen before) and 1 classic Sarawakian Microcarpa.
That's right folks. The wood above is not from 1 tree. Its actually from 5 different trees. Take some time to ponder on that. Let it sink in, and then let it ring in your mind the next time you place a precious sliver of agarwood on your burner.

Well, there you have it folks. Take it how you will. Prima donna, fact-sharer, (or pink pony)... it is what it is.

Please enjoy your high grade oud oils. I hope more people learn to differentiate between high and low grade ouds.
As for me, I'm still numb from something I heard recently, someone comparing an $18/bottle of oud to a $380/bottle (both at wholesale price). I hope that mass-scale market-wide awareness and appreciation comes about before its too late and the good stuff is all gone (or too expensive for mere mortals to be able to afford).
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
Five trees! In those little bags???
والله حرام
I went with your advice, i.e. the hunters test the tree to make sure there's at least sinking-grade potential and then go ahead and chop (instead of the additional more stringent China Market prerequisites I had outlined previously).
So now we know what that looks like. This is still more stringent than normal practice ("Oh, its an agarwood tree! Let's chop it down"), so no wonder we're facing extinction. See the above photo, estimate annual global market demand for agarwood, and do the math....

If you ask me, the ONLY trees fit for chopping down are China Market grade trees. Anything below that, and its n-degree murder in my book.
Hmm, now where're those China Market trees at......
 
Last edited:

RobertOne

Well-Known Member
I absolutely share your China market sentiments, waste is a sin in any event but to destroy forest for nothing is vile.

On the bright side, congratulations on getting something at least from your jungle adventures. It's been disheartening to read over and over how you were pipped to the post so I hope you are going to take a little holiday to celebrate.
 

m.arif

Active Member
That doesn't look like it'll cover the cost at all. tough times @Taha :(

I just visited an agarwood trader in Pahang, near the kampung areas. he deals mainly with the orang asli (aborigines).

He told me, don't worry about selling wood. the demand is exceeding supply. It's like putting a handful of sugar around an ant's nest, it will never be enough. The real problem is, where to get the wood?!

Standard and low grade wood, yes the supply comes every now and then. but high grade, stuff that would go into the hands of collector's, sometimes many months pass and nothing of that caliber comes in stock.

Once the stock in stores from years past have been depleted, then people in the market will truly understand what the extinction issue is all about.

The extinction issue discussed by Taha and the other guys dealing directly with the wood industry is never about low grade stuff, which is available. But the high end variety, that's the type that is getting extinct.

I've offered Taha's sinking wood to some people here, and they said the price I got was too expensive. But since then, none of them have been able to offer me the same quality wood at all, at any price. They even complain that they dont have any wood in stock, even the mid-above average grades, what more genuine sinking wood and up (authenticity is definitely an issue. sad to hear about the bad experience with @Waqas . syafaakAllaah ya akhi).

Trust and authenticity deserves an added value in pricing IMO. though the vendors dont usually include that in the price of their wares.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
I went with your advice.....
Sheesh! I thought you'd be looking at 2 kg super grade wood per tree minimum, when I gave the green light.... Being invested the way you were, with 7 months of nothing to show for it, you'd have to make some sacrifices to break even. I would have never agreed to it, had I known it would result in half a kilogram of wood total harvest from five trees! That's unheard of.... If I were in your place, I'd seriously line up the hunters and interrogate them one by one to make sure they didn't accidentally sell off most of the wood to anonymous Chinese buyers they ran into while you weren't around. :eek:
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
On the bright side, congratulations on getting something at least from your jungle adventures. It's been disheartening to read over and over how you were pipped to the post so I hope you are going to take a little holiday to celebrate.
I suppose something is better than nothing.. :p

Sheesh! I thought you'd be looking at 2 kg super grade wood per tree minimum, when I gave the green light.... Being invested the way you were, with 7 months of nothing to show for it, you'd have to make some sacrifices to break even. I would have never agreed to it, had I known it would result in half a kilogram of wood total harvest from five trees! That's unheard of.... If I were in your place, I'd seriously line up the hunters and interrogate them one by one to make sure they didn't accidentally sell off most of the wood to anonymous Chinese buyers they ran into while you weren't around. :eek:
Efendi, I promise you, this is very normal for an average non China market level haul, especially when its Candan or Candan-type species. I'll try to dig up a photo of one of our last 2015 Semananjung hauls. The entire batch would easily fit inside one of those little glass boxes in a ma7allat oud in Dubai.
Haul sizes are probably even smaller now in Semananjung, as hunters have to travel up to higher altitudes where the trees are even skinnier (shin diameter).

Also, here the entry into and exit from the jungle is always monitored. There are no alternative entry/exit points (check the river network east of Brunei, north of Tutoh, and west of Melinau Paku), and I arrange for the boat transport (RM1,500 per trip) for the hunters every time they have to enter/exit the jungle. In other words, there's no room for funny business, no way they can sneak out wood.
hunters.jpg
Hassan (the old saluting guy in the back) was in fact so upset with the harvest he just wanted to quit and go back home because he had come out of retirement to hunt for me only because he was told we'll be penetrating super duper duper deep... the sort of jungle terrain these guys could never penetrate on their own.
'course... turns out, the mighty Chinese ¥ already sent a bunch of Vietnamese hunters there, and THAT'S what we hadn't expected considering how deep and isolated this area is. All the wandering Penans nomads that my hunters come across all complain about the Vietnamese hunters with AK47's that come and pluck out all the old trees. Even the Penan are no match for them.. and that says a lot.

That doesn't look like it'll cover the cost at all. tough times @Taha :(

I just visited an agarwood trader in Pahang, near the kampung areas. he deals mainly with the orang asli (aborigines).

He told me, don't worry about selling wood. the demand is exceeding supply. It's like putting a handful of sugar around an ant's nest, it will never be enough. The real problem is, where to get the wood?!

Standard and low grade wood, yes the supply comes every now and then. but high grade, stuff that would go into the hands of collector's, sometimes many months pass and nothing of that caliber comes in stock.

Once the stock in stores from years past have been depleted, then people in the market will truly understand what the extinction issue is all about.

The extinction issue discussed by Taha and the other guys dealing directly with the wood industry is never about low grade stuff, which is available. But the high end variety, that's the type that is getting extinct.

I've offered Taha's sinking wood to some people here, and they said the price I got was too expensive. But since then, none of them have been able to offer me the same quality wood at all, at any price. They even complain that they dont have any wood in stock, even the mid-above average grades, what more genuine sinking wood and up (authenticity is definitely an issue. sad to hear about the bad experience with @Waqas . syafaakAllaah ya akhi).

Trust and authenticity deserves an added value in pricing IMO. though the vendors dont usually include that in the price of their wares.
Your post deserves to be carved in stone and painted in gold. Folks will complain about the price of Baby King grade agarwood, but can never get it anywhere. So.. what is the complain relative to?
You'll see plenty of photos of Super King wood being posted on Facebook daily. "Ready stock available!" Track those guys down, and it turns out the photos are just changing hands... no one actually has any, since its already in China. ;)
True story #1: I actually saw one of MY OWN photos being circulated (an old batch, I think 2014) on Facebook.
True story #2: I put down six large ones for some Indonesian wood. When I got there, the guy didn't actually have the wood 'with him' (I still haven't gotten it, nor expect to).

I think once Adam's done emptying the coffers of the oud markets :p (i.e. already-harvested old stocks), folks will have a more accurate picture of the situation as those coffers are replaced with more current stock.
Meanwhile, I too have now switched to grabbing as many old stocks of wood that I can for distilling. Cooking right now, wild Ha Tinh (Vietnamese) oud:
nm.png

What happens after the old stocks are all gone, I don't know. Maybe "cheap high grade oud" will finally prevail. Or maybe everyone will whither away, and only Ensar will remain standing (being the only guy I know with massive reserves of oils distilled from high grade wood). Ensar, we're all hoping you keep feeling charitable. ;)