Oud Biz: The Dark Side
- Thread starter Taha
- Start date
@koolaid79, about 60-70 tolas per my calculation. It's a range, rather than an exact number, because I never received those oils so I'm estimating based on the quantity of raw materials used.
Speaking of raw materials.. I still have about 300kg sitting (for almost a year now) at the facility in Pahang. Maybe the time is ripe for a MOCA oil, if Ahmad can figure out a way to dust off the idle pots and get them up and running again.
Thanks @bhanny, glad to hear you've enjoyed the solos!
And hey, @all, I didn't want you guys to dwell on the negative stuff too much. Look, I never said anything about these lost batches of oils this entire past year, and I hope we can focus on positive stuff instead. Like the new ouducation curriculum.
<'course if anyone stumbles across any of my missing oils, I'd be eternally grateful if you can get them back to their rightful owner (yours truly). If any proof is required to show ownership, I'm happy to show Western Union transfer slips, supporting chat screenshots etc.>
Speaking of raw materials.. I still have about 300kg sitting (for almost a year now) at the facility in Pahang. Maybe the time is ripe for a MOCA oil, if Ahmad can figure out a way to dust off the idle pots and get them up and running again.
Thanks @bhanny, glad to hear you've enjoyed the solos!
And hey, @all, I didn't want you guys to dwell on the negative stuff too much. Look, I never said anything about these lost batches of oils this entire past year, and I hope we can focus on positive stuff instead. Like the new ouducation curriculum.
<'course if anyone stumbles across any of my missing oils, I'd be eternally grateful if you can get them back to their rightful owner (yours truly). If any proof is required to show ownership, I'm happy to show Western Union transfer slips, supporting chat screenshots etc.>
@koolaid79, about 60-70 tolas per my calculation. It's a range, rather than an exact number, because I never received those oils so I'm estimating based on the quantity of raw materials used.
Speaking of raw materials.. I still have about 300kg sitting (for almost a year now) at the facility in Pahang. Maybe the time is ripe for a MOCA oil, if Ahmad can figure out a way to dust off the idle pots and get them up and running again.
Thanks @bhanny, glad to hear you've enjoyed the solos!
And hey, @all, I didn't want you guys to dwell on the negative stuff too much. Look, I never said anything about these lost batches of oils this entire past year, and I hope we can focus on positive stuff instead. Like the new ouducation curriculum.
<'course if anyone stumbles across any of my missing oils, I'd be eternally grateful if you can get them back to their rightful owner (yours truly). If any proof is required to show ownership, I'm happy to show Western Union transfer slips, supporting chat screenshots etc.>
Speaking of raw materials.. I still have about 300kg sitting (for almost a year now) at the facility in Pahang. Maybe the time is ripe for a MOCA oil, if Ahmad can figure out a way to dust off the idle pots and get them up and running again.
Thanks @bhanny, glad to hear you've enjoyed the solos!
And hey, @all, I didn't want you guys to dwell on the negative stuff too much. Look, I never said anything about these lost batches of oils this entire past year, and I hope we can focus on positive stuff instead. Like the new ouducation curriculum.
<'course if anyone stumbles across any of my missing oils, I'd be eternally grateful if you can get them back to their rightful owner (yours truly). If any proof is required to show ownership, I'm happy to show Western Union transfer slips, supporting chat screenshots etc.>
Thank you
WHOA!
Okay...
May I request that we either move this to a different thread, or better yet - and Habz, you know this is what I prefer - discuss this in private? How many times have we chatted on WhatsApp, and I would tell you how much I despise qeela wa qal (so-and-so said, and so-and-so said), never want to get involved in others' affairs, and especially don't like to get involved in any 'political'/personal stuff.
Of course I, as well as everyone else, knew who you've been referring to. All this time, I was waiting/hoping you'd get in touch with me, knowing what you already know of me, and how I like to deal with any issue (in 2 cases, as I'm sure you'll recall, I contacted you and Ouddict directly asap when I felt there was just the *possibility* of something that could build up to something big, and thus decided to get clarification directly from you). Ouddict did the same, alerting me promptly when he heard some unsettling news from a certain distiller, and thought I should prolly know about it. And good thing he did too... I'll attach the chat screenshots below, and you'll see what I mean. And then you can also see how I would wish for anyone to deal with situations where there is even the slightest risk of someone's reputation getting tarnished — let alone their daily bread getting trampled on.
Ouddict, I salute you. And part of the reason I'm posting the screenshots publicly is so that you can also see what actually happened (and clearing the distiller's name... well, to some extent).
The Lao batches... you don't need to ask about those. Why would you need screenshots? You knew exactly what happened, as it was happening. I was in the jungle, came back, had a broken back for a week and the cherry on top of the cake was... well, you know exactly what. So put that one aside. The others include: a Sulawesi batch (resolved, and I thank the third party involved for their chivalry and forthrightness), half of the Royal Papua batch, 2 Indian batches, half of the Sultan's Succor batch, 2 Burmese batches (resolved), a Borneo candan batch... among others.
Part of me (REALLY) wants everything to be discussed openly. But the sensible portion of my brain tells me to do precisely what, as I have told you countless times, the right thing to do is: resolve issues privately (sorry guys! I'm sure you were looking forward to some exciting masala!).
I have thought long and hard about this, and I hope you reach the same conclusion as me (waiting for your ping on WhatsApp!). Part of the reason is also because I refuse to be 'put up on the stand', this whole 'guilty until proven innocent' thing that apparently should be applied to oud vendors.. sorry I am not cool with that. And lastly, I don't want this thread to get hijacked by a personal issue. I had started this thread to let folks discover some of the unknown aspects of the oud trade (okay, I must admit, this kinda does reveal some of the unknown headaches vendors have to face, haha... but this is all way too personal).
So... I will request you to please either start a new thread, or better yet, just ping me on WhatsApp. Have I been anything but nice whenever we (used to) chat?
Here are the screenshots. Only posting these because I brought up Ouddict and distiller X, otherwise this would not be posted up publicly like this, despite the censoring. And another reason obviously is to demonstrate how things can (and should) be resolved (you don't see Tim Cook tweeting about discussions/disagreements/debates with the CEO of Pegatron publicly).
@all, just look about what actually happened, and then see what ended up being conveyed (due to poor English, and as a side: pardon my pigeon English in the chat too). And now, imagine if Ouddict had decided to post this all over the internet, instead of alerting me promptly, which is what he did.
Okay...
May I request that we either move this to a different thread, or better yet - and Habz, you know this is what I prefer - discuss this in private? How many times have we chatted on WhatsApp, and I would tell you how much I despise qeela wa qal (so-and-so said, and so-and-so said), never want to get involved in others' affairs, and especially don't like to get involved in any 'political'/personal stuff.
Of course I, as well as everyone else, knew who you've been referring to. All this time, I was waiting/hoping you'd get in touch with me, knowing what you already know of me, and how I like to deal with any issue (in 2 cases, as I'm sure you'll recall, I contacted you and Ouddict directly asap when I felt there was just the *possibility* of something that could build up to something big, and thus decided to get clarification directly from you). Ouddict did the same, alerting me promptly when he heard some unsettling news from a certain distiller, and thought I should prolly know about it. And good thing he did too... I'll attach the chat screenshots below, and you'll see what I mean. And then you can also see how I would wish for anyone to deal with situations where there is even the slightest risk of someone's reputation getting tarnished — let alone their daily bread getting trampled on.
Ouddict, I salute you. And part of the reason I'm posting the screenshots publicly is so that you can also see what actually happened (and clearing the distiller's name... well, to some extent
).The Lao batches... you don't need to ask about those.
Why would you need screenshots? You knew exactly what happened, as it was happening. I was in the jungle, came back, had a broken back for a week and the cherry on top of the cake was... well, you know exactly what. So put that one aside. The others include: a Sulawesi batch (resolved, and I thank the third party involved for their chivalry and forthrightness), half of the Royal Papua batch, 2 Indian batches, half of the Sultan's Succor batch, 2 Burmese batches (resolved), a Borneo candan batch... among others.Part of me (REALLY) wants everything to be discussed openly. But the sensible portion of my brain tells me to do precisely what, as I have told you countless times, the right thing to do is: resolve issues privately (sorry guys! I'm sure you were looking forward to some exciting masala!
).I have thought long and hard about this, and I hope you reach the same conclusion as me (waiting for your ping on WhatsApp!). Part of the reason is also because I refuse to be 'put up on the stand', this whole 'guilty until proven innocent' thing that apparently should be applied to oud vendors.. sorry I am not cool with that. And lastly, I don't want this thread to get hijacked by a personal issue. I had started this thread to let folks discover some of the unknown aspects of the oud trade (okay, I must admit, this kinda does reveal some of the unknown headaches vendors have to face, haha... but this is all way too personal).
So... I will request you to please either start a new thread, or better yet, just ping me on WhatsApp. Have I been anything but nice whenever we (used to) chat?
Here are the screenshots. Only posting these because I brought up Ouddict and distiller X, otherwise this would not be posted up publicly like this, despite the censoring. And another reason obviously is to demonstrate how things can (and should) be resolved (you don't see Tim Cook tweeting about discussions/disagreements/debates with the CEO of Pegatron publicly).
@all, just look about what actually happened, and then see what ended up being conveyed (due to poor English, and as a side: pardon my pigeon English in the chat too). And now, imagine if Ouddict had decided to post this all over the internet, instead of alerting me promptly, which is what he did.
Taha, I am trying to figure out what happened here and I confess that I am finding some of it hard to follow.
Am I getting this right? You were alerted about some nefarious distiller activities by Ouddict and then had discussions with Habz about same issues. The issues raised were true.Then, they post about some of these oils in question as marked up from some double billed wholesale price to show how supposedly you take advantage of unsuspecting Oud customers?
I don't get it. What would be the motivation behind something like that? What in the world am I missing here?
Am I getting this right? You were alerted about some nefarious distiller activities by Ouddict and then had discussions with Habz about same issues. The issues raised were true.Then, they post about some of these oils in question as marked up from some double billed wholesale price to show how supposedly you take advantage of unsuspecting Oud customers?
I don't get it. What would be the motivation behind something like that? What in the world am I missing here?
No I alerted Taha to a distiller who claimed that he was owed money by Taha for over a year and despite his pleas and contact, had got nothing from him ... I ignored it for 3 months as I found it hard to believe Taha would do such a thing, but then decided to help the guy resolve the matter by contacting Taha and letting him know about this issue. The distiller wasn't nefarious... he simply complained about not being paid which to be honest bewildered me at the time.
Instead of publicly labelling Taha a thief online which would be outrageous, I ignored it at first and then finally I contacted Taha to try and help two Muslim brothers resolve an issue.
I don't like discussing these kinds of things online becasue it's not the right thing to do to resolve private differences and also feel uncomfortable about Taha's screenshots, but I suppose I can understand why he chose to do that.
The pricing of oils or their sourcing has nothing to do with this.
Instead of publicly labelling Taha a thief online which would be outrageous, I ignored it at first and then finally I contacted Taha to try and help two Muslim brothers resolve an issue.
I don't like discussing these kinds of things online becasue it's not the right thing to do to resolve private differences and also feel uncomfortable about Taha's screenshots, but I suppose I can understand why he chose to do that.
The pricing of oils or their sourcing has nothing to do with this.
If you ask me, Taha is being far to gracious in this matter and is too noble to stand up to the outright theft he has suffered. I appreciate his concern and preference for keeping this matter behind the scenes. However, and although I’m in the vendor’s corner myself, I do feel the issue is essential information to everyone. Because it exposes something of the way certain oils are marketed, as well as hinting at the losses incurred on the production end. The latter is something that is not stressed enough, and it weighs in heavy in the debate over how ‘overpriced’ oud oils are.
That another seller acquired Taha’s oils, knowingly or not, is no small matter. Everyone appears to be a distiller these days, even though some folks spend little more than a week or two per year (if any) in the field or personally engaged in the process. There’s nothing wrong with that, except when we’re led to believe otherwise. When another distiller’s oils are acquired and then resold without credit.
I can tell you firsthand that Taha puts more effort into selecting raw materials and designing distillation set-ups than most realize – or are able to realize! Far more expertise is required than merely tweaking the soak and choosing the pot. So, when all the brain-racking and hard work is done, and everything is paid for, and then the final product ends up in somebody else’s hand… several 'distortions' come to life. The most obvious being the price.
Say Taha paid only $200 / kg for the wood… already he lost thousands. Then he paid for the distillation and everything associated with it – the logistics, labour, etc. In fact, in many cases he bought and set up the distillery’s equipment in the first place. His entire profit comes from the resulting yield. So, when the yield disappears he suffers twice, thrice over. (And remember, this didn’t happen just once!)
Now, the distiller who robbed him can then sell that oil to someone else at whatever price he likes – Taha already paid him once, so whatever he gets now is pure 'barakah' for him… This is the kind of scheme that can lead people to jump the gun and claim that he is overcharging on oils that really cost only $150 per tola.
No, my friend. It cost YOU only $150 per tola. It cost Taha A LOT more than that!
You see, the dilemma we’re faced with? Out of the blue, a good oil appears on the market, for cheap. People start to wonder: “This is kinda nice, quite comparable to oils that cost 4 times as much. Something’s amiss… either these guys are really making oud cheap again, or the other guys are doing the opposite.” In the end, the good guy gets portrayed as the villain.
The second, and even bigger problem is how Taha’s oils will be re-sold. Inevitably, it’ll be a story of “Our distiller this, and our distiller that…” OR: “We really went all out with this one, by tweaking this-and-that…” where in reality, Taha is the one who did all of that. But he’ll get none of the credit, and the reseller’s reputation will get built on something they DID NOT have any part in, other than accidentally (or not??) getting their hands on another man's work.
(Of course, the real story here is that it shows you exactly how involved Vendor X or Y is in their distillations, while claiming the contrary…)
That another seller acquired Taha’s oils, knowingly or not, is no small matter. Everyone appears to be a distiller these days, even though some folks spend little more than a week or two per year (if any) in the field or personally engaged in the process. There’s nothing wrong with that, except when we’re led to believe otherwise. When another distiller’s oils are acquired and then resold without credit.
I can tell you firsthand that Taha puts more effort into selecting raw materials and designing distillation set-ups than most realize – or are able to realize! Far more expertise is required than merely tweaking the soak and choosing the pot. So, when all the brain-racking and hard work is done, and everything is paid for, and then the final product ends up in somebody else’s hand… several 'distortions' come to life. The most obvious being the price.
Say Taha paid only $200 / kg for the wood… already he lost thousands. Then he paid for the distillation and everything associated with it – the logistics, labour, etc. In fact, in many cases he bought and set up the distillery’s equipment in the first place. His entire profit comes from the resulting yield. So, when the yield disappears he suffers twice, thrice over. (And remember, this didn’t happen just once!)
Now, the distiller who robbed him can then sell that oil to someone else at whatever price he likes – Taha already paid him once, so whatever he gets now is pure 'barakah' for him… This is the kind of scheme that can lead people to jump the gun and claim that he is overcharging on oils that really cost only $150 per tola.
No, my friend. It cost YOU only $150 per tola. It cost Taha A LOT more than that!
You see, the dilemma we’re faced with? Out of the blue, a good oil appears on the market, for cheap. People start to wonder: “This is kinda nice, quite comparable to oils that cost 4 times as much. Something’s amiss… either these guys are really making oud cheap again, or the other guys are doing the opposite.” In the end, the good guy gets portrayed as the villain.
The second, and even bigger problem is how Taha’s oils will be re-sold. Inevitably, it’ll be a story of “Our distiller this, and our distiller that…” OR: “We really went all out with this one, by tweaking this-and-that…” where in reality, Taha is the one who did all of that. But he’ll get none of the credit, and the reseller’s reputation will get built on something they DID NOT have any part in, other than accidentally (or not??) getting their hands on another man's work.
(Of course, the real story here is that it shows you exactly how involved Vendor X or Y is in their distillations, while claiming the contrary…)
Couldn't agree more Thomas, if someone has actually taken oil that belongs to Taha then he has every right to call them up publicly or privately.
And who are these "distillers" working a few weeks a year in these oils and stealing other vendors creations? It seems you are privy to more information than you let on.
Be helpful for all of us as there seems a huge undercurrent of innuendo and allegation floating around.
And who are these "distillers" working a few weeks a year in these oils and stealing other vendors creations? It seems you are privy to more information than you let on.
Be helpful for all of us as there seems a huge undercurrent of innuendo and allegation floating around.
Cooking oils can be back breaking (literally!). Doing everything alone, from the grind to the cleaning, with a 15-20kg capacity pot at that, I can't imagine how Taha does it. If such a case as @Kruger mentioned of "our distiller this ..that" , or "we went all out with this and that" was done...and in reality it's all drama..well.... oh boy.. *negative vibes*
